Bessler's 2 Wheels

[not_me]

To let all of you know, I am banned from this forum. I believe this is because I support Bessler. You see, a certain private build group posts in another forum that they do not do Bessler builds because they expect to be compensated for their efforts. The posts can be shown if anyone wants proof.

Hello, not_me or is it really Bessler_Supporter? Do you have any other pseudonyms?

Please explain why you are banned from this forum, I do not believe it is for supporting Bessler.

What other forum does Bessler wheel designs only if compensated for? Please post proof or at least the address for the forum.

I do not build facsimiles of Bessler designs as drawn, I know they will not work. Your above sketches only reinforce this point.

Therefore If I am asked to build something that is of no value except to the individual who wants it for a sculpture or trivia mobile , compensation would be expected.

Ralph

>>I do not build facsimiles of Bessler designs as drawn, I know they will not work. Your above sketches only reinforce this point.<<
An Mt 24 modern day cross section I built. I believe Bessler's cross section is based on the cross, 4 sections or weights.
I think it helps to build Bessler's drawings if a person actually wants to understand his engineering. This would be like letting the Master be the teacher. Of course, there might be little compensation in it as Bessler is German and this is German history. Not sure how favorable a response would be in America. Besides, it's not supposed to be possible.
But with the modularbuilding technique I used, I could do multiple builds from the same wheel limiting my expenses.
With the pic where it looks rotated, it shows tht the lever can be perpendicular to the force of gravity allowing it to have maximmum force for pumping.
The pic where it looks level I show the math for the lever moving 45 degrees inward. It performs more work than the imbalnce it creates with solid weights. This allows the water to be the primary over balance. Also, when the weeights fall inward on the way up, they would make a knocking sound.



>>

[not_me]

@All,
I thought I would show the proper way for scissors to be built.
By using a set up like this, the force of the weight will follow the center line of the scissors. This would prevent twisting and binding which could cause problems.
On a side note, normally when people recreate a part of history, they do it because they find it interesting. There are many examples of people dooing things like this because it is one of their interests. Possibly the best example is an Egytptian ship being built that could sail the Red Sea.
It was an interesting design as it used no ribs and did not have a keel. It's hull was made out of wood that fitted together like a puzzle. And it also had a mast for it's sail
Of course, there is the trebuchet which was considered impossible.
Now back to the scissors, since this is simpler to test than the water pump, I might be able to post a video by next weekend. It is possible the set up will try to rotate. If this happens, I'm not sure how much of a problem it would be.
I'd normally say Ralph could try this if he wants, but working with 3/8 x 2 x whatever might be to small of a scale for wood. As long as it can support a 2 1/2 weight on a leverr and 5 pound weight at the bottom of the scissors, it's cheap enough to test.
Then if the lighter weight can lift the heavier weight in such a manner, it would help to support Bessler.

[AB Hammer]

Hello Jim, P-Motion, not me, bessler supporter, ect

Of course, there is the trebuchet which was considered impossible.

By whom?

The war machine was like all war machines, a marvels to behold. I know of no were in history, it was ever considered impossible.

Wow I see some improvement, for you have a scissor jack in a correct and usable construction arraignment.

A word of advice Jim. Don't attack and they may let you stay. Keep things to an opinion status only.

[greendoor]

The physics and engineering of hydraulics and scissor jacks etc are well known and used in daily applications around the world. They behave according to the expected maths - I can't see what you are presenting here is any different.

I still don't see that lifting a fluid mass gives any gain over lifting a solid mass. Mass is mass. Gravity force acts on mass - period. If you allow mass to fall (solid or liquid) you have to lift it back up again, against the same force that was acting on it while it fell.

I'm not saying gravity powered wheels are impossible - I believe they are possible. But there has to be a differential of some sort, whereby you expect to get 'more' of something during the fall that you need to use up during the lift. From where i'm sitting, the only thing I can see that will offer this is TIME. G-force is basically a constant (for practical purposes - I don't think Bessler's wheel used tidal oscillation, but that is another possibility). So if we say G-force is constant, and obviously mass has to be constant (to avoid ending up with all our mass at the bottom) - then TIME has to be the differential. Momentum = Impulse = Force*Time. Time we can vary.

So are you hoping to use the scissor jack as a fast lift action? Or are you hoping to use hydraulics as a fast lift action? A trebuchet definately is a fast lift action. These are all mechanisms i've toyed with using. Very probably there are dozens of methods that could work - but the trick is to know exactly the principle that we want to implement, otherwise we aren't going to achieve anything.

[not_me]

Greendoor,
I did a quick try with the scissors. $5, what the heck. One of the reasons why is how clues about the wheel might be considered. That and I like trying.
Ordinarily water is not considered by weight, but by volume.
It is possible Bessler used scissors in his construction to make his wheel more rigid.
With water, a 1 pound weight can generate 2 pounds of force with a 2:1 ratio. Unlike using solid weights, resistence is slight as water is a liguid. Easier to realise the potential.
The trick I hope to demonstrate is that water is displaced, not lifted. By displacing water, it can be moved to a greater height than a solid weight with the same force.
John Collins clarified one thing for me. He said that Bessler said he did not use wind, water or weights as people usually do in clocks.
Also, as a builder of windmills which were used for the grinding of grain, water mills also served the same purpose. He might've had experience with both. It could be a water wheel is what he saw in nature.

[justsomeone]

Not-Me, Is your drawing of MT24, as drawn, a joke?

Do you expect one weighted lever to lift another weighted lever of equal

size in this configuration? IT WILL NOT! Let alone have sufficient force

left to pump water, all in a split second. What were you thinking?

If this is an example of your engineering skills...... well never mind.

I'll give you about 3 more posts before you start attacking members

here and winning. Show your colors Jim.

[not_me]

Hello Jim, P-Motion, not me, bessler supporter, ect

Of course, there is the trebuchet which was considered impossible.

By whom?

The war machine was like all war machines, a marvels to behold. I know of no were in history, it was ever considered impossible.

Wow I see some improvement, for you have a scissor jack in a correct and usable construction arraignment.

A word of advice Jim. Don't attack and they may let you stay. Keep things to an opinion status only.

Are you going to accept my offer of having abuild off between me and you ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laPqtUMk5gA

[not_me]

@All,
Needless to say, I don't like Alan. I guess it stems from when I tried discussing an idea while I waas going through radiation and chemotherapy for cancer. He wouldn't let me discuss my idea.
There is an idea that has eveolved from that. But his keel effect does not support it.
Maybe one day he will let me discuss it and try it. If you guys would like a laugh, his keel effect showed Mt 24 was a waste of time. At the time, I was discussing how inertia could be negated.
As it turns out, the water wheel is based on Mt 24. Common sense suggests Bessler's wheel would have to be based on one of his drawings if he is to be credited with having built one.
It has a weight landing on a warped board, if you consider water as weight, then one eight replaces another (when the solid weight pumps the water, it replaces it in that position), scissors would be for lateral support, it uses warped boards, the weights work together (solid weight pumps the liquid weight).
Not sure of all of his cluees. I try to keep them in mind when I work on builds. It's about the only way to sort everrything out and get a better understanding. Along with this , what has helped is when I've been able to discuss idea's without Alan's input.

[not_me]

Not-Me, Is your drawing of MT24, as drawn, a joke?

Do you expect one weighted lever to lift another weighted lever of equal

size in this configuration? IT WILL NOT! Let alone have sufficient force

left to pump water, all in a split second. What were you thinking?

If this is an example of your engineering skills...... well never mind.

I'll give you about 3 more posts before you start attacking members

here and winning. Show your colors Jim.

No, I don't ecpect the weights to work together like that. To say that Bessler possibly referred to solid weights as weights and water as weight. People refer to water by volume. Have you ever bought a pound of milk or 16 ounces of water ?
I also don't like posting with Alan. He thinks I'm an idiot and wishes to teach me his keel effect. I like to think I learned a few things in the Navy. Unlike what Alan knows and using stones for ballast, we pumped water from one tank to another. It allows for a more fluid and dynamic experience. With stones, the ballast really can't be changed quickly enough to be of much use. Of course, sailboats with weighted keels capsize all the time because of how force is manipulated above the water line (level of the axle).
Boats have capsized because of shifting loads also. Living in Seattle, Wa. and being around ships and boats, it is difficult to miss the importance of maintianing laod integrity.

[ovyyus]

It has a weight landing on a warped board...

FWIW, the "warped board" translation is incorrect and has been updated (by Stewart) to 'short board'.

I think a build-off is just what we need around here :D

[not_me]

ovyyus,
One concept I was working on used short boards.
This is because it would allow the weights to swing, shifting the load.
I asked once and was told Bessler said it took him several years to figure out.
If so, then as I've heard he said, you would think a little over balance would do it.
The 4 weighted wheel I've been working on uses slots instead of pendulums.
It is possible he used multiple swings to shift the weight.
This drawing is an example of what I've been trying to better understand. I moved the slot on the right to show. I had it in a balanced position to consider the math and how moving it's balance changes force, torque etc. When the weights pass bottom center, they can swing from a fulcrum. By doing this, they would need to land on something. Then wheen they need to be moved to an over balanced position, is swinging or rolling better ?
I'm glad you like the build off idea. There are different ways of going about. It depends if it's taken personally or just the boys out having a beer and a good time :-)



edited to correct spelling. Ja snuke Angleske :-)

[not_me]

@All,
I prefer the pseuodnym P-Motion. And am I concerned about being banned because Alan and Ralph don't like me ? No I am not.
This Autumn, I'll be able to build Bessler's wheel.
I recently had cancer which has caused me more problems than the disease itself.
Unfortunately as far as Ralph and Alan were concerned, so what!
The only reasson this is a problem is I do know how Bessler's wheel worked.
It's like I told Alan once when he told me he is a teacher, I know who my father is and he's an immigrant you don't like. I think he and Ralph are bigots. Either that or it is just that I understand this type of engineering better than they do and this doesn't allow them to be top dogs.
To tell the truth, it does bother me to have to watch everything I say ebcause Ralph and Alan might be offended. Who knows, maybe they deserve it.
It;s about like they're saying Achtung! Der kommisar echt um!


Bye

[Ben]

Dear Not,
You, like me, are obviously obsessed with Bessler's wheel. And, like me, you have obviously been working on it for years, and are almost posessive about it. I really do understand how you feel. Especially when you spend as much time with a build or an idea like the one you're working on now. And then to see someone post a bicycle wheel with a string and weight attatched flipping and flopping, and everyone here says, "Wow, great idea. I think I'll punch your green button!" when more time has been spent filming and blathering than actually building. Yes, I know how you feel. But you have to realize that most people here relate to the simple stuff because that's all they could ever do, and they hope maybe they'll all figure it out together. (not much chance of that, and only a fool would post anything really good here, anyway.) I'm not saying I think your idea will work, because I think it's still missing something that I'm not willing to share, but I do want you to know that you're not alone. And I will punch your green button for the work you have shared.
Thanks,
Ben

[Ben]

onlysomebody,
I was just looking at your album. I see no builds at all in there, so maybe you should stay out of this
Ben

[path_finder]

Dear not_me,
As explained many times before there is no way to be successful with a single primemover.
Even if you take some credit into the Bessler drawings (we have no evidence of the real purpose of these drawings) you must make a combination of two of them (at the minimum), and even with any combination you will not be sure to reach the graal.
Regarding the drawing you published above, it's typically a 'Somerset' design. See here:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/pm.gif
Hereafter a device combining several parts using this concept, but used today just as ornament for my personal museum (it does not work). Nobody is perfect...