Manipulating Momentum

[Kirk]

Being a 'Momentumist' is not new or unique. What would be new and unique would be an 'Momentumist' demonstration which proves a real gain. That's what everyone wants, even if some might doubt it is possible.

Kirk, thanks. I remember you mentioned some years ago that you would post a description of your idea. If so, it was a long time coming. How do you view the basket ball/tennis ball demonstration in terms of momentum transfer between a large and small mass?

poor transfer. f you want to use spring you've to match rate to "sweet spot". Imagine large mass up to speed and contacts small mass via spring. You have to select masses and spring rate such that you achieve max coupling.

[Kirk]

Thanks Kirk. So you've become a 'Momentumist' eh? Pequaide & myself have been trying to push the same ideas up hill now for some years, and so far the idea seems to have gone down like a cup of cold sick.

Congratulations on phrasing things a little differently and getting a more positive reception.

A lot rides on your statement: "It is the transfer of momentum to a higher velocity that makes this work." I believe that Gravesend could see this in the maths too - but couldn't figure out how Bessler did it.

Common consensus of the grumpy skeptics around here is that it is 100% impossible to transfer all momentum from a heavy mass to a light mass. For the very simple reason that it is obvious that this would result in energy gain.

p = mv
e = 0.5mvv

Since energy goes up with the square of velocity, any transfer of momentum that results in a large increase in velocity would result in a disproportionate increase in Energy - hence the extreme reluctance of Energy believers to accept that this could be possible.

This will need a simple experiment that can prove the principle, otherwise this idea will sink like a stone.

Momentum is the only mechanism available. Dont make an absolute out of math. It is a human invention that atempts to communicate ratios, relationships etc. So what do we know about acceleration due to gravity or any othe constant force? When we plot it - it is a straight line. Velocity is directly proportional to time. So momentum is a straight line. Since ke responds to velocity non linearly we get our free lunch. ;-)
Made me dizzy the first time I saw it. Was hard to violate the chatechism of physics class. But a cold pot on a cold stove still doesnt get hot unless you have a momentum machine.
I propose fastening a disc of sheet metal to the side of a bicycle wheel to stiffen it and install the two impact targets and verify. I have been trying to get a steel disc cut with teeth, 360 of them, in a 4 foot wheel since bfore Christmas so I could do a video. The fellow with the plasma cutter can ill afford a basically non paying piece of work with the current state of business so. . . .
Oh - the 360 teeth were to drive a coil wrapped around a magnet so I had good indication of speed - pulses per second - as the teeth modulated the magnet and read by a digital frequency meter.

[Kirk]

having a hard time posting. Keep getting errr mesages

[Kirk]

It's hardly complex to set up an experiment with conditions which would show w/o doubt what happens in a transfer of momentum from a heavy mass to a small one.

Let's look at the problems in experiments so far, not many of which had for primary aim the transfer of momentum... We've used tethers with the aim of gaining height, but radial/elasticity issues are too complex to work out in experiments not conducted under rigorous scientific protocol.

In a ball collision scenario, we have to be 100% sure that the collision is totally "frontal" so the transfer is perfect. This has not been demonstrated. Also, most attempts have not had a perfectly controlled release of/impulse to large mass.

So we are left with as best choice a mechanical release system, such as a pinball machine shooter. Impacting a cube bang in the middle of one of the six sides, inasmuch as a cube has 6 sides. The cube is on ice. It is allowed to travel x distance before impacting bang head on a smaller cube.

Determine the size ratios, build the setup, and all of you unfortunate enough to live where there are ice hockey rinks, off ye go to perform the experiment.

No argument possible. We know or can work back to all the friction factors etc, and find out for once and for all.

The increase is so great a fair amount of error can be accommodated. However banging a cube on ice is limited to the velocity of the cube you dont have a transformer tto step it up.

[nicbordeaux]

I propose fastening a disc of sheet metal to the side of a bicycle wheel to stiffen it and install the two impact targets and verify. I have been trying to get a steel disc cut with teeth, 360 of them, in a 4 foot wheel since bfore Christmas so I could do a video. The fellow with the plasma cutter can ill afford a basically non paying piece of work with the current state of business so. . . .
Oh - the 360 teeth were to drive a coil wrapped around a magnet so I had good indication of speed - pulses per second - as the teeth modulated the magnet and read by a digital frequency meter.

Here you are then : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0538833778

4 foot dia, only weighs 100 lbs... Any decent sawmill will have a worn out one lying around they don't know what to do with.

More realistic might be do use a kid's bike wheel and a much smaller blade with a lot of teeth for fine cutting. Likewise, look for a salvage job ?

[jim_mich]

Oh - the 360 teeth were to drive a coil wrapped around a magnet so I had good indication of speed - pulses per second - as the teeth modulated the magnet and read by a digital frequency meter.

You can buy a laser tachometer for about us$20. Most of the cheap ones require a piece of reflective tape be placed on the rotating part. That is a lot less cost than cutting teeth.

[Kirk]

I propose fastening a disc of sheet metal to the side of a bicycle wheel to stiffen it and install the two impact targets and verify. I have been trying to get a steel disc cut with teeth, 360 of them, in a 4 foot wheel since bfore Christmas so I could do a video. The fellow with the plasma cutter can ill afford a basically non paying piece of work with the current state of business so. . . .
Oh - the 360 teeth were to drive a coil wrapped around a magnet so I had good indication of speed - pulses per second - as the teeth modulated the magnet and read by a digital frequency meter.

Here you are then : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0538833778

4 foot dia, only weighs 100 lbs... Any decent sawmill will have a worn out one lying around they don't know what to do with.

More realistic might be do use a kid's bike wheel and a much smaller blade with a lot of teeth for fine cutting. Likewise, look for a salvage job ?

Great suggestion! Never thought of it.
Unfortunately for me freight is $323.22
80 teeth is every 4 1/2 degrees, I wanted tighter resolution for the people who want to argue physics. coupled with freight I can get my wheel with 360 teeth. Then you can get a 1% answer you can rely on

[FunWithGravity2]

Jim for an old guy your pretty hip, I had never seen one of those until just now, and i'm half your age LOL, and work on mechanics of ALL kinds. I have been jury riggin tachs on old engines for years to test/ tune. You just brought me into the new century. Any reccomendations on a brand or can i just grab some 19.99 cheapy off Ebay from china, I'm waiting to hit buy it now.

Thanks
Dave

[jim_mich]

I don't know much about them, only that awhile back I looked into buying one and at that time they were selling for about us$39. I guess just read the descriptions.

[pequaide]

You hold to one errant concept that is going to hinder your success: this is the notion that there is some difference between rotational motion and linear motion.

One kilogram moving one meter per second in the rim of a wheel has the same quantity of motion as a one kilogram mass moving one meter per second in a straight line. One newton of tangent force applied to a one kilogram rim for one second gives you the same momentum as one newton of force applied for one second to a one kilogram linear sledge.

I have used a low friction sledge in combination with a bearing mounted disk with a puck on a frictionless plane to prove that linear motion and rotational motion are one and the same thing.

The fact that linear motion and rotational motion are one and the same thing allows you to use a wheel for a storage device for momentum (not angular momentum but linear momentum).

Most people have this “(not angular momentum but linear momentum)� as a stumbling block. They can’t grasp it and there research prospects of making energy are ended.

If you can accept that a spinning wheel has linear momentum (or at least an equivalence of) then any wheel from a small disk on electric motor bearings to ‘smokin lamas’ are great momentum storage devices.

The transfer of large quantities of linear momentum from a large object to a small object is eminently simple. Wrap a wheel with a weighted string and give the wheel a spin; and then let the weight unwrap. How fast the wheel and missile are moving can be determined by tachometers and video tapes.

[ovyyus]

poor transfer. f you want to use spring you've to match rate to "sweet spot".

Yes, poor transfer. What about using steel balls in place of the basket ball and tennis ball eg; a 50mm diameter ball bearing and a 25mm diameter ball bearing dropped together onto an anvil?

For that matter why not use a simple lever, eg; drop a 1 lb weight 1 ft onto a 4:1 lever which throws a 1/4 lb weight into the air? Losses and complexities aside, do you think we should see the 1/4 lb weight thrown higher than 4 ft?

[Kirk]

You hold to one errant concept that is going to hinder your success: this is the notion that there is some difference between rotational motion and linear motion.

One kilogram moving one meter per second in the rim of a wheel has the same quantity of motion as a one kilogram mass moving one meter per second in a straight line. One newton of tangent force applied to a one kilogram rim for one second gives you the same momentum as one newton of force applied for one second to a one kilogram linear sledge.

I have used a low friction sledge in combination with a bearing mounted disk with a puck on a frictionless plane to prove that linear motion and rotational motion are one and the same thing.

The fact that linear motion and rotational motion are one and the same thing allows you to use a wheel for a storage device for momentum (not angular momentum but linear momentum).

Most people have this “(not angular momentum but linear momentum)� as a stumbling block. They can’t grasp it and there research prospects of making energy are ended.

If you can accept that a spinning wheel has linear momentum (or at least an equivalence of) then any wheel from a small disk on electric motor bearings to ‘smokin lamas’ are great momentum storage devices.

The transfer of large quantities of linear momentum from a large object to a small object is eminently simple. Wrap a wheel with a weighted string and give the wheel a spin; and then let the weight unwrap. How fast the wheel and missile are moving can be determined by tachometers and video tapes.

I do? News to me.
I do believe the momentum is proportional to the distance from the center of rotation.
But I think you have overlooked the crux of what I am talking about - I am translating velocity with an almost lossless lever. That is the essence.

[Kirk]

poor transfer. f you want to use spring you've to match rate to "sweet spot".

Yes, poor transfer. What about using steel balls in place of the basket ball and tennis ball eg; a 50mm diameter ball bearing and a 25mm diameter ball bearing dropped together onto an anvil?

For that matter why not use a simple lever, eg; drop a 1 lb weight 1 ft onto a 4:1 lever which throws a 1/4 lb weight into the air? Losses and complexities aside, do you think we should see the 1/4 lb weight thrown higher than 4 ft?

The lever introduces another mass to accelerate. Thats why we abandon the lineal lever and use a wheel in constant rotation. Now we have much less loss.

[ovyyus]

Yes, but I did assume, "losses and complexities aside". If we assume the perfect lever (no mass or loss) then do you think a 1 lb weight dropped 1 ft onto a 4:1 ratio lever will throw a 1/4 lb weight higher than 4 ft?

[Kirk]

Being a 'Momentumist' is not new or unique. What would be new and unique would be an 'Momentumist' demonstration which proves a real gain. That's what everyone wants, even if some might doubt it is possible.

Kirk, thanks. I remember you mentioned some years ago that you would post a description of your idea. If so, it was a long time coming. How do you view the basket ball/tennis ball demonstration in terms of momentum transfer between a large and small mass?

poor transfer. f you want to use spring you've to match rate to "sweet spot". Imagine large mass up to speed and contacts small mass via spring. You have to select masses and spring rate such that you achieve max coupling.

yes, long time coming. Wanted to make bucks and of course that complicates the hell out of everything especially with my medical and financial handicaps. Decided I was being a selfish shite only thinking of myself and no good would come of it. We need to repair this world while we have at least half a chance. Time is running out at an exponential rate at least in my eyes.