My opinion is the bi-directional wheel was driven almost solely by impulse of weights moved by CF and not by gravity, and the number of thumps per rotation was most likely NOT a whole number.
Speculations on the witness's evidence
Moderator: scott
re: Speculations on the witness's evidence
The wheel which he was observing was balanced when stationary, and was very likely also balanced when rotating. If the wheel was balanced while rotating then there would be no connection between gravity and rotational position. There would have been NO synchronicity between the motions of the weights and the rotation of the wheel. Thus the number of thumps per rotation could very likely have been a little less or a little more than eight thumps per rotation.
My opinion is the bi-directional wheel was driven almost solely by impulse of weights moved by CF and not by gravity, and the number of thumps per rotation was most likely NOT a whole number.
My opinion is the bi-directional wheel was driven almost solely by impulse of weights moved by CF and not by gravity, and the number of thumps per rotation was most likely NOT a whole number.
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eccentrically1
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If he needed extra weight to compensate for slower speed, he could have simply used heavier weights to begin with rather than extra 4 lb weights. If the mechanisms couldn't handle heavier weights, then he would have had to build it with 4 sets of mechanisms, 2 sets for each direction. Wouldn't it need to be more than 6 inches wider if that was the case?
I'm not so sure the wear and tear on the Kassel wheel was of that much concern to bessler. Why would he care if the wheel got a little more banged up; he dismantled them all anyway. Weren't they made of oak? Oak can take a beating.
I'm not so sure the wear and tear on the Kassel wheel was of that much concern to bessler. Why would he care if the wheel got a little more banged up; he dismantled them all anyway. Weren't they made of oak? Oak can take a beating.
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eccentrically1
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Jim, if the wheel was balanced while rotating, why would that necessarily mean the thumps were a whole number only after 2 or more revolutions? It seems to me if the mechanisms were evenly spaced inside the wheel, no matter what you think turned the wheel; gravity or CF, the number of thumps would have to be a whole number after one revolution because of the even spacing.
re: Speculations on the witness's evidence
eccentrically1,
Assume when the wheel was rotating at full speed with no load that it took 178 degrees of rotation time for a weight mechanism to shift/move from one position to another position. And then it took the same time to shift back. Thus one full cycle of shifting to and fro takes 178 + 178 = 356 degrees of rotation or 4 degrees short of being synchronized. Now assume there were four such mechanisms. This would produce eight thumps every 356 degrees of rotation. There would be 8 × 360 / 356 = 8.09 thumps per rotation.
If the thumps are not synchronized to the rotation, the frequency of the thumps relative to the wheel rotation speed might vary as any applied work load causes wheel speed variations.
When counting the thumps, you would get about eight per rotation.
Assume when the wheel was rotating at full speed with no load that it took 178 degrees of rotation time for a weight mechanism to shift/move from one position to another position. And then it took the same time to shift back. Thus one full cycle of shifting to and fro takes 178 + 178 = 356 degrees of rotation or 4 degrees short of being synchronized. Now assume there were four such mechanisms. This would produce eight thumps every 356 degrees of rotation. There would be 8 × 360 / 356 = 8.09 thumps per rotation.
If the thumps are not synchronized to the rotation, the frequency of the thumps relative to the wheel rotation speed might vary as any applied work load causes wheel speed variations.
When counting the thumps, you would get about eight per rotation.
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eccentrically1
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Yes, I see. That would be nearly impossible to detect that small variance of thumps per rev.
Yet it seems counter-intuitive that the weights and levers could provide the same impulse at differing positions in the gravitational field. When they were swinging through that 178 degrees on the descending side, wouldn't they have more impulse then, than they would when eventually swinging through the ascending side 178 degrees, because gravity would be slowing down their CF? Assuming the wheel is balanced?
Yet it seems counter-intuitive that the weights and levers could provide the same impulse at differing positions in the gravitational field. When they were swinging through that 178 degrees on the descending side, wouldn't they have more impulse then, than they would when eventually swinging through the ascending side 178 degrees, because gravity would be slowing down their CF? Assuming the wheel is balanced?
re: Speculations on the witness's evidence
A matter of opinion; Author Ralph E. Lortie
Within the next month and 28 days we will have reached the 300 year mark that we have been acting like terrier dogs chasing our tails!
Take a moment to consider the total man hours, man in general has spent over the last 30 decades. Estimate how far 100,000 Thaler's would go, divided by all the man hours we have cumulatively spent. It would be less than a penny, it would not be worth bending over to pick up off the street!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaler
Our whole concept of pursuit is and always has been based on the following collections of words gathered from this single thread; Tendency, Question of doubt, About, Uncertainty, Ascertain, Confuse, Assume, Don't know, Estimate, Suppose, Speculation. The list could go on, but I think you get my point!
Wake up people! It is time to consider our past tactics and consider revising new battle plans, after 300 years of war it is time to regroup.
Forget what has been written, its obvious by now that it is one giant red herring, and consider one thing and one thing only. Either you believe Bessler built a self-sustaining machine capable of producing excess energy or you don't.
If you do believe then put your efforts toward gaining the resources and skills to accomplish building prototypes of you ideas and collaborate with other builders. Do not let yourself become biased and engrossed by the armchair analogy presented here.
To many years has been spent attempting to bust the secret using and configuring leverage and falling weights. Objectively speaking, is it not time to consider Bessler's own words that the machine gained force by the weights swinging. Having weights clustered closer to the axle on the ascent is futile. This holds true no matter what type mechanical contrivance you use to place them there.
I write this with emotion, my restructured heart is beginning to fail, I do not know how much longer I will be here to pursue our dream. My legacy is to hopefully leave something behind to incite others to start looking where Bessler said others had looked and failed.
After many years of research and untold number of builds, my opinion may not be worth much. But those who will heed my words; You need to spend more time with the known physics of pendulums. A pendulum at three hanging vertical exerts maximum force upon the axle at a right angle. The same pendulum hanging at nine and at its peak of amplitude weighs nothing!
My opinion and how does this relate to this thread regarding speed (RPM) of wheel verses it's diameter. The larger the wheel the longer the pendulum rod. The cycle time is regulated to match the RPM. Pendulum Cf is employed when pivot is at three and bob at its half cycle. Cf on the wheel is employed when the bob is between 6:00 and 7:30 pivot at 4:30 to 5:00
What is my conclusion based on; Before his demise, James Kelly and I accidentally stumbled upon a discovery using four pendulums with a half cross bar not unlike a framing square in appearance. The cross bar (shorter than the rod) had a dampener weight 1/2 the weight of the bob. The four units were hung symmetrically each at 90 degrees on a rectangular plywood open face disk.
A wire handled basting brush was attached to a standard that would lightly strike the the dampener weight as it passed 9:00. This impetus was enough to sustain motion by reducing the Pe of the ascending bob allowing the machine to run for considerable time.
Also noted was that when the device was place in his living room, the clothes washer would set it into motion when going through the spin cycle. By shear accident the dimensions of the framing square, placement and size of weights and the radius of the pivot points were in the ball park that brought the pendulum cycle close to being attuned with the radial velocity of the disk.
The machine did not produce excess power and we referred to it as a 'Drinking Bird' It did however confirm that the concept of 'swinging weights should be sought with more vigor and that Bessler knew what he was talking about.
James or i have never before spoke of this on open forum. We felt that the response would be futile as James was noted for crying 'Wolf' a few times to often.
Ralph
Within the next month and 28 days we will have reached the 300 year mark that we have been acting like terrier dogs chasing our tails!
Take a moment to consider the total man hours, man in general has spent over the last 30 decades. Estimate how far 100,000 Thaler's would go, divided by all the man hours we have cumulatively spent. It would be less than a penny, it would not be worth bending over to pick up off the street!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaler
Our whole concept of pursuit is and always has been based on the following collections of words gathered from this single thread; Tendency, Question of doubt, About, Uncertainty, Ascertain, Confuse, Assume, Don't know, Estimate, Suppose, Speculation. The list could go on, but I think you get my point!
Wake up people! It is time to consider our past tactics and consider revising new battle plans, after 300 years of war it is time to regroup.
Forget what has been written, its obvious by now that it is one giant red herring, and consider one thing and one thing only. Either you believe Bessler built a self-sustaining machine capable of producing excess energy or you don't.
If you do believe then put your efforts toward gaining the resources and skills to accomplish building prototypes of you ideas and collaborate with other builders. Do not let yourself become biased and engrossed by the armchair analogy presented here.
To many years has been spent attempting to bust the secret using and configuring leverage and falling weights. Objectively speaking, is it not time to consider Bessler's own words that the machine gained force by the weights swinging. Having weights clustered closer to the axle on the ascent is futile. This holds true no matter what type mechanical contrivance you use to place them there.
I write this with emotion, my restructured heart is beginning to fail, I do not know how much longer I will be here to pursue our dream. My legacy is to hopefully leave something behind to incite others to start looking where Bessler said others had looked and failed.
After many years of research and untold number of builds, my opinion may not be worth much. But those who will heed my words; You need to spend more time with the known physics of pendulums. A pendulum at three hanging vertical exerts maximum force upon the axle at a right angle. The same pendulum hanging at nine and at its peak of amplitude weighs nothing!
My opinion and how does this relate to this thread regarding speed (RPM) of wheel verses it's diameter. The larger the wheel the longer the pendulum rod. The cycle time is regulated to match the RPM. Pendulum Cf is employed when pivot is at three and bob at its half cycle. Cf on the wheel is employed when the bob is between 6:00 and 7:30 pivot at 4:30 to 5:00
What is my conclusion based on; Before his demise, James Kelly and I accidentally stumbled upon a discovery using four pendulums with a half cross bar not unlike a framing square in appearance. The cross bar (shorter than the rod) had a dampener weight 1/2 the weight of the bob. The four units were hung symmetrically each at 90 degrees on a rectangular plywood open face disk.
A wire handled basting brush was attached to a standard that would lightly strike the the dampener weight as it passed 9:00. This impetus was enough to sustain motion by reducing the Pe of the ascending bob allowing the machine to run for considerable time.
Also noted was that when the device was place in his living room, the clothes washer would set it into motion when going through the spin cycle. By shear accident the dimensions of the framing square, placement and size of weights and the radius of the pivot points were in the ball park that brought the pendulum cycle close to being attuned with the radial velocity of the disk.
The machine did not produce excess power and we referred to it as a 'Drinking Bird' It did however confirm that the concept of 'swinging weights should be sought with more vigor and that Bessler knew what he was talking about.
James or i have never before spoke of this on open forum. We felt that the response would be futile as James was noted for crying 'Wolf' a few times to often.
Ralph
Last edited by rlortie on Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
re: Speculations on the witness's evidence
To me this is a just a hobby , something to play around with .
Why be so serious about it !
Why be so serious about it !
re: Speculations on the witness's evidence
Ealadha,
If you are not serious about it, and it is just a hobby, I suggest you move to another over-unity forum and make room here for the serious.
I am serious, my deteriorating health leaves me little time to spend in the shop seeking the right physical characteristics that Bessler found. I do not wish to take all my knowledge to the grave as Bessler did.
The fact that the latest news concerns the fact that there are now 7 billion inhabitants on this planet with a pronounced depletion of oil to me is no joke!
The time has come to pay heed to the Bible which tells us that there is everything man needs upon this planet. 'Seek and ye shall find it'... In my own words; it will not be found until the needs by the mother of necessity allow us to find it. Bessler found it, but man and necessity was not ready to except it.
Ralph
If you are not serious about it, and it is just a hobby, I suggest you move to another over-unity forum and make room here for the serious.
I am serious, my deteriorating health leaves me little time to spend in the shop seeking the right physical characteristics that Bessler found. I do not wish to take all my knowledge to the grave as Bessler did.
The fact that the latest news concerns the fact that there are now 7 billion inhabitants on this planet with a pronounced depletion of oil to me is no joke!
The time has come to pay heed to the Bible which tells us that there is everything man needs upon this planet. 'Seek and ye shall find it'... In my own words; it will not be found until the needs by the mother of necessity allow us to find it. Bessler found it, but man and necessity was not ready to except it.
Ralph
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John Collins
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re: Speculations on the witness's evidence
Thanks for the wake-up call Ralph. I'm not sure which 300th anniverary you are referring to, but 6th June next year 2012, will the 300th since Bessler's first exhibition at Gera.
I have been and still am a compulsive builder first and foremost, and an armchair theorist only in the middle of the night or very early in the morning when I first awaken, and my hands are empty - usually about 4.50 am these days! I don't actually get out of bed 'til after 5.30am on pain of a severe telling off by my beloved wife!
I have learned more from my builds than all the verbal and graphic clues left by Bessler and yet there are a few which have recently guided me and which I would not even have noticed nor understood a few years ago, without the years of failed constructions accomplished first.
I know that speculation mostly seems pointless and yet sometimes it can trigger an idea in someone's head and I make no apology for occasionally indulging in it.
I tried collaboration many years ago with a small group of like-minded people, one or two were members of this board, but the truth is that unless you live very close within say a mile or so of each other it just doesn't work, not for me anyway. Trying to explain your ideas by email is too difficult and often incorrect assumptions are made or misunderstandings happen. Our little group eventually disbanded and we went out separate ways although the lure of Bessler's wheel still engages us.
JC
I have been and still am a compulsive builder first and foremost, and an armchair theorist only in the middle of the night or very early in the morning when I first awaken, and my hands are empty - usually about 4.50 am these days! I don't actually get out of bed 'til after 5.30am on pain of a severe telling off by my beloved wife!
I have learned more from my builds than all the verbal and graphic clues left by Bessler and yet there are a few which have recently guided me and which I would not even have noticed nor understood a few years ago, without the years of failed constructions accomplished first.
I know that speculation mostly seems pointless and yet sometimes it can trigger an idea in someone's head and I make no apology for occasionally indulging in it.
I tried collaboration many years ago with a small group of like-minded people, one or two were members of this board, but the truth is that unless you live very close within say a mile or so of each other it just doesn't work, not for me anyway. Trying to explain your ideas by email is too difficult and often incorrect assumptions are made or misunderstandings happen. Our little group eventually disbanded and we went out separate ways although the lure of Bessler's wheel still engages us.
JC
Read my blog at http://johncollinsnews.blogspot.com/
This is the link to Amy’s TikTok page - over 20 million views for one video! Look up amyepohl on google
See my blog at http://www.gravitywheel.com
This is the link to Amy’s TikTok page - over 20 million views for one video! Look up amyepohl on google
See my blog at http://www.gravitywheel.com
re: Speculations on the witness's evidence
Damion and all of interest,
I will send pictures to any serious member of this forum via private mail. Reason being; the pictures were taken with a Wall-Mart pen cam and are of poor quality, reducing them to post here will leave a lot to be desired.
Take note that James and I built for research and not for craftsmanship. this procedure allowed us to build in an expedient manner out of readily available materials. This thing was thrown together and was never meant for public viewing.
The framing square pendulum was born out of a debate between Jim_Mich and myself which James misinterpreted leading to the scratch built concept. not much to look at but the thing ran enough to be worthy of farther research and exploitation.
Look at the concept not it's eye appealing looks!
Contact me with a return address either through the 'Arrache' contact link or directly via; rlortie@Q.com and I will send you the UN-edited .bmp pictures.
Please do not assume that I already have your private e-mail address as I may or may not. To many computer crashes!
Serious builders and reputable members only need apply!
Ralph
I will send pictures to any serious member of this forum via private mail. Reason being; the pictures were taken with a Wall-Mart pen cam and are of poor quality, reducing them to post here will leave a lot to be desired.
Take note that James and I built for research and not for craftsmanship. this procedure allowed us to build in an expedient manner out of readily available materials. This thing was thrown together and was never meant for public viewing.
The framing square pendulum was born out of a debate between Jim_Mich and myself which James misinterpreted leading to the scratch built concept. not much to look at but the thing ran enough to be worthy of farther research and exploitation.
Look at the concept not it's eye appealing looks!
Contact me with a return address either through the 'Arrache' contact link or directly via; rlortie@Q.com and I will send you the UN-edited .bmp pictures.
Please do not assume that I already have your private e-mail address as I may or may not. To many computer crashes!
Serious builders and reputable members only need apply!
Ralph
Last edited by rlortie on Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
re: Speculations on the witness's evidence
Ralph, if you would like to send the pictures to me I can resize and post them to the forum for you.
Sorry to hear about the old ticker. Of course there doesn't seem to be much wrong with your heart :)
Sorry to hear about the old ticker. Of course there doesn't seem to be much wrong with your heart :)
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FunWithGravity2
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re: Speculations on the witness's evidence
http://besslerwheel.com/wwwboard/messages/435.html
From the old forum, from our wonderful host, Thank you!
Scott
"Therefore, if swinging weights in a wheel were coordinated with one another and with the overall speed of the wheel, then it is possible to envision a scheme where the weights on one side of the wheel were always at their nadirs, and the weights on the other side of the wheel were always at their end points. Therefore, the wheel would always be lighter on one side than the other."
And that was from November 13th of 2002, almost 10 years to the date. I have linked that same post several times through the years in many of my ramblings, and never with anymore response than Scott originally recieved. Although i knew it was on the tips of so many tongues.
It seems the thought is one that has occured many times before by many people. Such a simple idea, i constanlty wonder where people decide to stop and how many different directions a simple idea can diverge into. Ralph and James' "drinking bird" wheel and its odd sympathy, Scotts idea? where did they stop?
It seems everyone has looked here at some point and time, the melodic natural oscilation of weights mesmerizing us, if only we could find the correct ressonance/sympathy with some force to cause them to find their odd sympathy with the universe.
not relevant, entirely, but sympathy nonetheless
Stones
"Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith
And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game"
wooo wooooo
Dave
From the old forum, from our wonderful host, Thank you!
Scott
"Therefore, if swinging weights in a wheel were coordinated with one another and with the overall speed of the wheel, then it is possible to envision a scheme where the weights on one side of the wheel were always at their nadirs, and the weights on the other side of the wheel were always at their end points. Therefore, the wheel would always be lighter on one side than the other."
And that was from November 13th of 2002, almost 10 years to the date. I have linked that same post several times through the years in many of my ramblings, and never with anymore response than Scott originally recieved. Although i knew it was on the tips of so many tongues.
It seems the thought is one that has occured many times before by many people. Such a simple idea, i constanlty wonder where people decide to stop and how many different directions a simple idea can diverge into. Ralph and James' "drinking bird" wheel and its odd sympathy, Scotts idea? where did they stop?
It seems everyone has looked here at some point and time, the melodic natural oscilation of weights mesmerizing us, if only we could find the correct ressonance/sympathy with some force to cause them to find their odd sympathy with the universe.
not relevant, entirely, but sympathy nonetheless
Stones
"Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith
And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game"
wooo wooooo
Dave
Si mobile in circumferentia circuli feratur ea celeritate, quam acquirit cadendo ex
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
re: Speculations on the witness's evidence
Bill,
Appreciate the offer, but I have with Scott's help found a web resizer that does and excellent job. It is the quality of the pictures taken by a man who could not aim a $9.00 camera straight that concerns me.
I will of course send them to you in original format but not for posting on the forum please! You will have to update me on your address. If you recall you have not received any bathing suit pictures lately! That's because I lost your address when MS 'Outlook' decided it and my IP server were no longer compatible!
Requests are pouring in as I type, looks like i am going to be busy for a while.
Ralph
Appreciate the offer, but I have with Scott's help found a web resizer that does and excellent job. It is the quality of the pictures taken by a man who could not aim a $9.00 camera straight that concerns me.
I will of course send them to you in original format but not for posting on the forum please! You will have to update me on your address. If you recall you have not received any bathing suit pictures lately! That's because I lost your address when MS 'Outlook' decided it and my IP server were no longer compatible!
Requests are pouring in as I type, looks like i am going to be busy for a while.
Ralph