Gravity vs. Centrifugal Force

[smith66]

Stewart,
Considering how well it describes Mt 60, I'll find no reason to finc fault with the translation.
One thing that may hwve been over looked is what those 2 drawings have in common.
One thing besides the possible explanation being given for the wrong drawing is that they both have 8 sections. And it is said that Bessler used 8 weights.
Also, witb Mt 60, the use of bellows is obvious.

[jim_mich]

smith66, aka to.late, aka P-Motion , aka john, aka bobriddle, aka Jim_Lindgaard, you are free to think whatever you want to think, but it is my opinion that Stewart is correct.

Here's an example of getting a wrong translation by not studying what Bessler is showing....

This is Andrew Witter's translation from the wiki:
"No. 24: This invention ought not to be scorned. It consists of separate levers with weights. Between the weights are small iron poles with screw threads. The poles fall inward when the levers close. There is something one must learn first before one can grasp and correctly understand the good quality of the invention."

Screw threads makes no sense when looking at the image. The original text says "mit Gewinden", and while 'Gewinden' can mean 'threads' or 'screw threads' it also means 'hinges', which is obviously the correct meaning here.

Andrew changed his translation in the version that appears in John's MT book to say 'hinges', after presumably studying the image more carefully. My point being, just giving text to someone to translate without studying the images or without any knowledge of Bessler's wheels or mechanics of the time is probably not going to reveal anything more understandable than what is already out there.

[smith66]

Jim_Mich,
Nothing personal but some times being to literal can cause the point to be missed.
Hansel and Gretel is an old children's story that predates Bessler by a couple of hundred years. And in the story, it was necessary to follow a trail of crumbs.
Just as Ramstein, a German music group that has a song called Du Hast, enough German's on youtube say it is clever word play because it is pronounced the same as du haft.
So with hinges and screw threads, Mt 24 shows hinges while Mt 60 has both screw threads and hinges.
Which meaning of the word would apply to Mt 60 ?

[Stewart]

Which meaning of the word would apply to Mt 60 ?

The text describes MT24 not MT60 - it's pointless trying to relate MT24's text to MT60. There are no screw threads in either image anyway.

Stewart

[smith66]

Stewart,
Anyone can look at Mt 60 and see that it has black rectangles that move in and out when the hinges move lik wise.
Anyone who has gone to school for machine shop operation or has turned threads would or should know what they look like.
Further more, Archimedes screw pump used a screw to pump water. The reason I mention this is that Bessler just might be trying to convey the idea that when his Bellows close that they are pumping water.
This coulc go back to why he called his wneel(s) orffyreus, because he is associating it witn tne Lyre of Orpheus where Bessler is Hermes, tne inventor. And that would make the person who understands his work would be like Orpheus. I think that's a good enough reason for him to give his wheel what would seem to be a non-sensical name.
And just as bellows pump when they close and prime themselves (fill with water/f
uid/air) when they open.
It might just between schooling and work experience may allow me to understand Bessler's drawings. He does say not to scorn it until you understand his work.

edited to add content about Hermes.

[jim_mich]

Anyone can look at Mt 60 and see that it has black rectangles that move in and out when the hinges move lik wise.

Show us the black rectangles!

[Stewart]

You're obviously very new to this subject and have a lot to gem up on. You're unlikely to find many people will respond to your discussion in this topic. MT60's proposed operation should be obvious after a short amount of studying, and you should not need anyone here to explain it to you. If you do need it explaining then perhaps this subject isn't really for you. ;-)

Bellows can of course be used with air or water, or even mercury, and all have been show in designs for PM before, during and after Bessler's time.

Bessler didn't call his wheel "Orffyreus", that was his own chosen name which he arrived at by applying the albam code to the name Bessler which gives Orffyre. Search the forum for the word "albam" for more information. Bessler talks in AP about Wagner claiming falsely that he originally spelt his name "Orpheus" because he wanted the allusion to Orpheus.

Stewart

[smith66]

Stewart,
>> MT60's proposed operation should be obvious after a short amount of studying, and you should not need anyone here to explain it to you. If you do need it explaining then perhaps this subject isn't really for you. ;-) <<

You are high on yourself, aren't you ? And considering I am the one building it, I guess I've gone over your head. It seems you are to literal to understand that Bessler was quite capable of grasping abstract concepts.
I mean with you, everything has one definition, right ? Anyways, that is what you seem to be saying to me.

I like the last part of your sentence >> If you do need it explaining <<
What is so difficult about seeing screw threads next to a hinge ? I'm not sure how you could possibly miss that, I really can't. Have you ever worked on a steam turbine, generator or operated a mill or lathe ? Doubt it.
@everyone else, the picture shows what clearly seems to be screw threads. Also in some other drawings of Bessler, there are other links from one drawing to another. It seems no one has ever found any value in them.
And the other picture is a bolt which is threaded (of course :-)

edited to add, scott might as well lock this thread if it's not considered possible to understand how Bessler's own drawings can lead to an understanding of his wheels.
to quote Bessler himself;

NB. 1st May, 1733. Due to the arrest, I burned and buried all papers that prove the possibility. However, I have left all demonstrations and experiments, since it would be difficult for anybody to see or learn anything about a perpetual motion from them or to decide whether there was any truth in them because no illustration by itself contains a description of the motion; however, taking various illustrations together and combining them with a discerning mind, it will indeed be possible to look for a movement and, finally to find one in them.

Stewart, please note where Bessler said that no illustration by itself. Then he goes on to say taking various illustrations together, to find one.
I'd say I have done that and have known it for quite some time. This is why I have been making the investment that I have both in money and time to learn what is necessary to build what I am willing to say is Bessler's wheel.
I think that if I am going to listen to anybody, it will be that man who's work I am recreating. Sorry.

[jim_mich]

Those things you say are screws are obviously coil springs around the rod that passes through them. Coil springs became common about 200 years before Bessler's time.

[Ed]

Linear bellows with weight on the end.

[Stewart]

Ok. I was just trying to be helpful, but you're obviously not interested and seem happily deluded, so who am I to interfere! Good luck!

[jim_mich]

Yes, linear bellows looks more likely, which would make the rest of the system also bellows,

[rlortie]

Boy! you guys are sure making it hard on someone who said they were going to take a respite from posting. It gets to good to pass up.

This forum is addictive and should be listed in Australia as a controlled substance worse than licking a "cane toad". I wish I could pass on a communique received from Western Australia a few days ago.

Jim, Is that a compression or tension bolt, should I use a grade 8 or will a common #2 be sufficient? I am still looking for the rectangles!

Ed, How heavy are the weights on your depicted Tasmanian bellows. Does it use bolts to press the springs that open and close the reeds? Is the dominate measurement of a platypus bill in the x, y, or z plane?

Somehow I feel this is all pertinent! :-)

Ralph

[smith66]

@ Stewart,
The linear bellows that Ed mentioned might be a good analogy. After all, what would happen if the weigbt at the end caused it to flatten out ? it'd pump out the other end, right ?

@rlortie, ewe and alan have always disliked me albeit for different reasons. besides, haven't seen any of your own work.

[justsomeone]

Jim, are you going to start your whining again. Leave Ralph, Alan and anyone else you have issues with alone. Don't even speak their name in your posts.

What use is a rating system if those banned keep coming back? As soon as Scott notices a banned member returns, he should quickly ban the new puppet and erase there posts. I only say this because we have all seen bad behavior return again and again and with you Jim .......again!