design claimed to be working

[Jonathan]

Ken, the weights are cylinders with pegs on the ends. They roll on the vanes of the wheel and at some point the spiral intercepts the pegs, redirecting the weights toward and over the axle. At the nadir of the spiral they pause for a moment as they transition from the top of their vane to the bottom of the follwing vane. I agree with you that it doesn't work, and I'm at as much of a loss as to why he'd lie as I am when I try to figure out why Goerg claims things work even when I build models and show that they don't.

[jim_mich]

The text on Keith Sinclair's sketch...

Code: Select all

Part Drawing
 For Clarity                           T?????? P????

Dia 1'-5'or More
 Size = torq?? ???                     Rotation of
                                         Wheel
      Side A
                                         
Weights Model ????                      105'
                                                      Side A
Brass or Wood Wheel                      
                                         End Elev
                       Side elev.
                                          Collector
                                           SPRING STEEL
? signature ?          Collector
  C 2005              Feet (Brass)
                                             Shape of    
                    Not   To   Scale         Weight

Looks interesting. What I see...

Cylindrical roller weights have smaller diameter hubs. These hubs ride on the many curved vanes or ribs on the side plates. A curved spring catches the rollers at about 105 degrees down from the top. The rollers will be spinning relatively faster due to their smaller hub diameters. They land on the spring and would want to roll up the spring due to rotational inertia. The spring would flex downward somewhat. The weight would stop rolling at the spring rebounds upward. The curved rib has rotated away from the weight now and the weight rolls down the spring. As the weight rolls past the wheel hub at some point it catches up with the ribs. Together a weight and a rib pass over the top and the weight once again rolls down the curved side ribs. I don't think a weight ever leaves a particular rib pocket.

Just my speculation as to what might happen here.

[ovyyus]

I agree with you that it doesn't work, and I'm at as much of a loss as to why he'd lie as I am when I try to figure out why Goerg claims things work even when I build models and show that they don't.

If the guy says it works then he should at least have the opportunity to prove his claim. I may be sceptical too but I'll give anyone a go before jumping to conclusions - one of my weaknesses I suppose :) Georg has had his chance and he failed miserably, maybe this guy can do better?

[ken_behrendt]

Thanks, Jonathan, for describing the operation of this device to me.

Yes, now I understand... the roller weights have smaller diameter pins at their ends that roll along PAIRS of matched spiral arms on each side of the wheel's drum which is actually shaped like a wide and flat reel without cross supports so that it does not hit the vertical ramp supports as it turns.

When the weights are descending, they push down on the INSIDE curve of a spiral arm set. When they are ascending, they are being pushed up the curved ramp by the OUTSIDE curve of a spiral arm set that immediately follows them during the rotation. Also, as jim_mich noted, each roller weight is actually confined to its own two pairs of spiral arms.

This is a rather clever variation on a design that probably accounts for about 90% of all the overbalanced wheels ever designed. And, as such, it will, of course, not work. The idea that it is overbalanced is just an optical illusion. While SOME of the roller weights are farther from the axis of rotation than others, this fact is negated by there being MORE ascending roller weights on the other side of the axis of rotation.

I do not think that any rolling action of the roller weights makes any difference, either. As they move out to the nadir of the inside curve of a pair of spiral arms, then will merely rock (or roll) back and forth and dissipate any rotational energy they have.

Oh, well, it was a nice try...hope he hasn't invested a lot of time trying to build it yet...

ken

[amateur]

Oh, well, it was a nice try...hope he hasn't invested a lot of time trying to build it yet...

ken

"lot of time" - built his own forge, 'smithed his own springs - he's probably spent some time.

[rlortie]

Jonathan,

THe Golden mean, talked about here reminds me of Greek architecture. the finals on Ionic columns to be exact. I remember duplicating these by wrapping a thread around a pencil and tieing another pencil to the free end. As a compass you would draw a circle as the string unwound. Each circle would be larger by the radius of the pencil you were unwinding the string from.

Is this the same as the Golden ratio?

Ralph

[Jonathan]

No, the equation of the sprial you describe is
r(T)=sqrt((T^2)+1)
@(T)=T-arctan(T)
and the equation of the golden spiral is
r(@)=phi^(2@/pi)
where @ is theta, phi and pi are spelled out, and T is the independent variable for the first set of equations.

[ken_behrendt]

Hi, Ralph...

Here's a simple way to understand the "Golden Mean" or "Golden Ratio".

First, it is an irrational number like pi...this means that it is represented by a number whose decimal equivalent would, if written down, go on forever without any repetition. It is symbolized by the Greek letter "phi" which I do not have on my keyboard.

If you take a given length, it will be divided into two shorter pieces if you place a point somewhere on it. This point can thus subdivide the whole length into two smaller pieces of unequal length which we can call A and B. Imagine that A is the longer than B.

Now the ancient Greek mathematicians discovered something very interesting when they did this. They found that there was one special place on the whole length where they could put the point so that the lengths of the whole piece and of the two smaller subdivided pieces had a special relationship to each other. When the point was placed at that special spot, the ratio of the length of the whole piece (A+B) to the length of the larger of the two smaller subdivided pieces (A) was exactly equal to the ratio of the length of the larger subdivided piece (A) to the length of the smaller subdivided piece (B).

Mathematically, this can be represented by:

(A + B) / A = A / B = phi = 1.618...


The value of these equivalent ratios was called "phi" or the "Golden Mean" or "Golden Ratio" and is numerically equivalent to about 1.618...

The ancient Greeks, who really loved geometry and kind of considered it the sacred language of the gods, were amazed by this unusual ratio and began to incorporate it into their building and other designs in various ways so as to gain the favor and protection of their gods. There are many ways of generating irrational numbers using geometry, but they fell in love with this particular one. It occasionally pops up in other types of math problems.

Actually, there's nothing "magical" about it and I do not believe that it plays a significant role in Bessler's various designs or his famous self turning wheels.

ken

[Michael]

Ken, the weights are cylinders with pegs on the ends. They roll on the vanes of the wheel and at some point the spiral intercepts the pegs, redirecting the weights toward and over the axle. At the nadir of the spiral they pause for a moment as they transition from the top of their vane to the bottom of the follwing vane. I agree with you that it doesn't work, and I'm at as much of a loss as to why he'd lie as I am when I try to figure out why Goerg claims things work even when I build models and show that they don't.

Jonathan, I am at a loss to explain if you are just being polite, or are a little naive? This is the internet of course and the topic is free energy. There's enough people that like to pull other peoples legs on other topic sites to understand that they are going to come and definitely do that on these sites. I'm not saying he is a fake but if he is it's understandable why.

Mike

[rlortie]

Jonathan Ken,

Thank you for the Golden Mean explanations.

Unfortunately me and math do not get along, as a freshman in high school I took basic algebra. I did not get it and the teacher would not take time to help me. I sat in class every day and stared out the window. Teacher gave me daily"F's" and passed me at end of term. I asked him why and his reply was that he did not want me in his class the next school term.

If I could find that teacher to this day I think I would throttle him. I now have a phobia about basic equations or any math with letters in it. The only ones I have ever been able to comprehend is electrical formulas such as Ohms law,impedance and Lenz. For everything else I rely on my books of formulas cosigns, tangents etc.

This is why I refer to myself as an empirical person who must build it to see if it works or why not.

Ralph

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Ovyyus,
why are you saying :

Georg has had his chance and he failed miserably, maybe this guy can do better?

You had all on this board, you have already the chance to rebuildt it. All is opened. But I think you can not read. I am saying I am sitting in front of my not running wheel, why ? Because I had it halted !! It starts with a fingerpush ! Selfaccelerating !!

The future has begun

Georg

[Jonathan]

We don't want to waste our time, so many people have built nothing until you provide prove that there is something worth building. Because K'nex makes things fast, I have built things that you said worked, several of them, and they didn't. And you know this and just ignore me!
Floppy Gears
Sandwatch on a Swing
Rupferer
Double Incline with Pulley and Rollers:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 1983&#1983
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 1995&#1995

[ovyyus]

It starts with a fingerpush ! Selfaccelerating !!

Show me proof - not just drawings and ideas and not just photo's of static bits. Do I ask for too much? Otherwise I will not let you waste my time. Fair enough?

[Trev]

Georg,
I also spent an afternoon building and testing your 'Running downhill, jumping up' principle, but it did not work at all like you claimed.
please, I beg you to prove us wrong by showing us a working wheel.

[bluesgtr44]

On this guy...Kieth's drawing...I think that Jim was decyphering some of his handwriting text. I believe the on word in the upper right hand corner is "Interior ?????" Maybe the second word is railing. I was able to clean it up a bit and interior makes sense.

They also have computer generated photos of what this thing must look like. I just cannot see the concept working the way t his is set up. It seems as though the weights are starting to move towards the center on the "golden spiral" rail a bit too soon. Would this design actually work. Simulations anybody?

I have tried the demo version of WM2D and it is a great program. cannot do any more with it because the 2D function is disabled in the demo. Not going to scrape up 2500 to buy it either. WOW.

Steve