BUOYANCY

[rasselasss]

'Gravesande's correspondence at Leiden University with Peter the Great ,Voltaire,Keill and Desaguilers regarding "Bessler's fifth wheel "and why it became a "no show" ......Bessler's attitude to his critics,his Peers who were the Academic heavyweights in Europe,his reluctance to reveal his education,career etc.did him no favours (do not bother me with trivial matters)......'Gravesande's professional reputation,now in recovery, now stating P.M.MAY be possible in some mode or other and understandingly distancing himself from Bessler....without 'Gravesande "on board"the outcome of Bessler's fate was sealed......"Peter the Great"withdrew from the matter .........Who knows what the outcome may have been had Bessler's attitude to his Peers not been as high handed,he rubbed them up the wrong way and paid the price.

[Dwylbtzle]

from what i've read about Peter The Great, if he'da thought bessler's wheel really worked he COULDA just found "means to make one talk"
because they had them
hehe
the visuals woulda been bad, so maybe his PR advisers nixed it

[rasselasss]

Dwylbtzle.Peter the Great and his successor Catherine the Great,recognised Gravesande as the greatest scientist in europe both having headhunted him at one time or another to lead and join their Academy.He refused on each occasion....Since his debacle in support of Bessler which damaged his reputation and subsequently being informed by Keill, Desaguilers and Voltaire ,that he was set-up so to speak,the snub by Newton inflicting a wound never to be healed between them,so he kept a foot in both camps Keill keeping him well informed(until his own death in 1721) of Newton's unhealthy interest in occult and lessening interest in Science matters ....i doubt Peyton Place would have anything on these guys,Voltaire hinting at Newton's unsexuality,never seen with interest in women(or men)......he never married so rumours abounded (no different to today(.This inner circle were really something tearing each other to pieces with Gravesande in the middle agreeing with all and keeping a balance and advantage....i suppose in the scheme of things there is no difference in people in those positions today.Reading the correspondance unravels like a greek tragedy(its all there,Greed, Ambition,Jealouslyand retribution),unfortunately the victim was Bessler rightly or wrongly,partly his own doing,if only he had been a bit more humble and honest .....what might have been.

[John Collins]

Peter died on 8 February 1725 on a trip to Germany, during which he planned to visit Bessler and buy his machine.

JC.

[eccentrically1]

He was going to buy it? I thought he hadn't committed to buying until he saw it first.

[rasselasss]

He died,I believe in St.Petersburg the town he had built in Russia(ironic),if he agreed with Bessler to view and buy ,this would confirm the Fifth Wheel's existence(the journey many thousands of miles by land but 4-5 days by sea from st.petersburg which would be preferable given the winter conditions in Russia) , truthfully i don't see him buying a covered wheel with Gravesande's reluctance to attend....this is an interesting twist of events

[John Collins]

Sorry, writing in shorthand! He intended to look at the machine and possibly buy it.

JC

[Dwylbtzle]

cool!--then russia woulda landed on the moon in 1897 or something!
hey--it's possible

[rasselasss]

Aggh,my greenie dropped off(painful) ,i'll keep my findings to myself,i've hurt someones feelings.....just after the truth.

[jim_mich]

Greenie dots fluctuate as other people get and give dots. For instance, if someone else gets a lot of greenies, then it can push you to a lower rung on the ladder. And conversely, if someone gets a lot of red dots it can lift your standing. Also you giving red and green dots effects your standing. So if you bounce between two levels, don't worry about it. That just means that you are borderline between the two levels. It does not always mean people are giving and taking YOUR dots.

[rasselasss]

"A man is the product of his own thoughts,what he thinks,he becomes" M.G. ....We can't help it,its the way we are.Any book wrote by ourselves about our life will always be self opinionated,Bessler is no different, its in our nature to accenuate ourselves and gloss over others criticism,so i can't accept "carte blanche"Besslers accounts of his life and i have issues.(which i'm looking for answers).....In defence of Bessler,i believe his wheel did what he said, J.C. mentions the disclosure price of £20,000 equivalent to 100,000 Thalers,..with inflation ,how much would that be to-day ??,i can only guess by what i know,my grandfather's paybook (N.Z.E.F.1914-18) one shilling a day(20 shillings equals £1) and this was 200 years after Bessler....,the people he was dealing with P. the G. ,Karl,Emperor of Austria etc.if he did try to trick or a deception in any manner,his head would be off,quicker than the wheel covers,he may be a lot of things but he was not a fool.

[daxwc]

the people he was dealing with P. the G. ,Karl,Emperor of Austria etc.if he did try to trick or a deception in any manner,his head would be off,quicker than the wheel covers,he may be a lot of things but he was not a fool.

Poverty, starvation and desperation can get a man to do a lot of things. Also some people don’t seem to see the risk; I am God of my reality (“it will not happen to them�), you see it in human nature in our era. Even some of our intelligent global leaders didn’t figure out they were looking down the barrel of a gun.



rasselasss : I enjoy your posts and research. One has to watch though how history is interpreted; there was no internet or even fast postal service. I doubt Newton could destroy anybody’s career outside England in a couple of years. It took years for him to get a toehold over Leibnitz even though he was dead. History has put Newton on a pedestal and we look back through rose colour glasses. My opinion if you were in Germany at that time you would see people such as Bernoulli family, Leibnitz, Gravesande, Wolff and many others, held sway over the Europe Kings not Newton’s camp. What people wrote in letters and what the king’s actually really thought is two different things.

[rasselasss]

I agree Daxwc with what you said,the problem i have with P the G unfortunately can only ever be conjecture concerning Bessler's Fifth wheel,the oct 1917 revolution most papers belonging to the Romanof dynasty were burnt in the mayhem at the winter palace as well as other locations.....I try to look at this with logic,i'm sure others will disagree......So,lets say P the G did agree early 1724 to visit Bessler,communications being a month or so later and response being similiar ,...Bessler we know needed lets say 4-6 months to build a wheel for this demo/sale,he was'nt to know P the G would die in feb 1725,its possible he would have been well into the building of it or even built it as i said i believe P the G would have came by sea,given the severity of Russian winters,alas proof from local newspapers at Kassel are not attainable the town 90% destroyed in W.W.2 aerial bombing........Most letters in existence are those received from P the G (outgoing)so we try to fill in the gaps from others,its a pity this side of the story was destroyed......edited just to add ,the communications regarding P the G to Karl/Bessler the dates of the visit if known would reveal and clarify the speculation timescale of this Fifth Wheel.....does anyone have this info.?

[Dwylbtzle]

this all just shows that if Bessler was pulling legs...
he certainly had the balls to be pulling the ones with some pretty bad kick

how's he gonna get away with selling a hoax, if he's selling it to Pewter The Great?

sure didn't choose the EASY mark, did he?

yeah, i've got some heisted jewels in the glove compartment of a stolen car (with illegal guns in the trunk)
and i choose the chief of police to try and fence it all to
-and THIS chief knows the chiefs of police in all the other towns
he can reach across borders
the one guy not to piss off

[jim_mich]

This lends credibility to Bessler's claim of true perpetual motion. If you lie to such people you end up loosing your head.