Drawings by preoccupied

[preoccupied]

I see that your picture shows no scissors. My hypothesis involves the experiment of me swinging my arms around. Without some kind of lever before the weight, I'm not sure it would have the same effect that I observed with my arms swinging. Your idea possibly would have a different effect but I don't fully understand your idea. When I swung my arms around when I started with my hands together and I stopped at a right angle I felt more force than other swinging and stopping combinations.

[preoccupied]

I'm thinking that the lever facing almost vertically from its fulcrum is really easy to move. So if a spring were strong enough pull on a weight when on a lever almost vertical to its fulcrum but not strong enough to pull the weight free fall maybe that might be used to shift a weight out of balance on a wheel. In my ms painting hypothetical6 I let a lever have its fulcrum to one side of the axle so that the weight can fall and be closer to the axle held by a spring (brown line). Then on the topside the spring pulls the weight in because the lever is almost vertical to its fulcrum.

I like this idea because the force of the weights is not what shifts the weight, because the spring is shifting the weight. I know pretty good that leverage gained from weights on the wheel shouldn't be able to push the weights back into position to fall but can a spring do it since it is independent from on the leverage gained on the wheel?

[Art]

.

Hi Preoccupied ,

Got to say , this stuff is a natural for you - judging by the questions you keep asking ! . However , the questions which appear simple enough , bring up other questions of such a fundamental nature that you need answers that are rock solid before proceeding . An incorrect explanation from somebody else ( who maybe doesn’t quite understand the question ) , if accepted at face value , can quite often be a show stopper if it is incorrect . You can end up thinking like them !

I think I understand some of your limitations ( rented premises , mobility challenges , lack of tools etc) but its obvious you have what it takes to ask the right questions so you just need to redirect them to the source (mother nature) where you will get understandable no nonsense answers that you can rely on .

No matter how hard a person tries to pass on their experience I’m convinced that it is largely not transferable , just too many unknowns and miscommunications creep in ! So the answers you seek can probably never be fully answered to your complete understanding unless you do the experiment yourself .

And in this game all you need is a few hundred dollars worth of simple tools ( a hundred dollars ain’t worth what it used to be ! ) and a stubborn streak (not lacking in this forum ) and some spare time , and the Universe is your oyster : )

To try and answer your question about the moving weight in your post above :- -- I can’t , .. because I think it might be a rhetorical question ! What I can say is that as far as moving a weight on a revolving platform , as you have drawn it , it will be as close as you can get to “unity� (ie energy in =energy out) as you can get , -that is if you allow the weight to continue in its movement past the radius and stretch the spring in the opposite direction as it descends.

If you stop the weight at the radius and absorb the momentum with a bump you end up with considerably less than “unity�

But you have to be there to really appreciate it ! : ) . I have yet to find a way of moving a weight around on a wheel with less friction than this .

Build for the new year Preoccupied ! You will never regret it ! , - unless of course the landlord bills you for messing up his carpet with drill holes etc : )

[preoccupied]

I think I might have painted incorrect distances of the levers because the smaller lever like seen in my ms painting hypothetical 11 seems to have just a little bit of distance change and the longer lever might not work as I intend in hypothetical6 painting. In hypothetical 11 the brown line (spring) pushes the weight out on the bottom side where there is less resistance by the weight and when the weight has more freedom to fall on the top right it comes just a little bit closer to the rim by compressing the brown line (spring) down. I can't help but feel that I'm missing something really simple that everybody else see's for why this wouldn't work. To me it looks like it will be overbalanced just by a tiny bit.

[eccentrically1]

A tiny bit, but how long would it be oob? until it balanced, whether your drawing is right or not. i don't think it is, the one at one might be wrong and the one at six. Gravity balances everything between mass, including spring tension in between mass, so they can't contribute more than they get, even used in conjunction with each other. that's the way i understand why it won't work.

[preoccupied]

thank you eccentrically1 you've got me thinking

If I draw this by hand maybe I can use a ruler to measure the distances to be more accurate.

hypothetical 12.png the levers are hanging the other direction (into the wheel) and it's basically the same thing. The weight is almost vertical to its fulcrum when the spring (brown line) is able to push out the weight located on the topside. and on the bottom left there is more freedom to fall for the weight and it compresses the spring bringing the weight just a little bit closer to the axle than the other weights on the right.

[Dave Roberts]

Hi preoccupied. I very recently built one very similar to your Dec 29th drawing and it tried, really tried to turn!! However, there were significant differences. I will try to explain but putting into words always leads to misinterpretation.
1. Each arm had a "stop" on the left side
2. The spring was attached midway (roughly) on the left side if the pivoting arm and was angled and attached to the mid circle. The spring lightly held the arm against the "stop".
3. As the weight passed about upper point where it would fall, it did fall a short distance before the spring pulled it back. In falling, it hit a "stop" on the outside of the rim giving it a slight "push". All else being equal, the wheel was in "balance".
4. As the arm passed lower in the rotation, the spring pulled it back into place against the left hand "stop".
This is probably similar to the "drinking bird" device but would not continue rotation. I really liked what I saw but moved on to a different design.
I am not going to say that further effort would not have been successful but like others, saw a path to a different design and took it.
As Ralph stated in another post, I am a builder with more builds under my belt than I care to admit. If I have confused you, I apologize as Ralph has told me before that I have a tough time describing what I am doing in writing.
Hope this helps. Let me know if you have questions.

[preoccupied]

Hi Dave Roberts

I have not tried to build anything for any of my builds. I once tried to build something out of card board boxes but it didn't work because the materials were bad. I am poor. My only hope to build a test of my ideas is for rlortie or somebody to take up the challenge.

I think it's important that the spring is only strong enough to push the weight when it is near vertical to its fulcrum so that it easily compresses the weight on the top right side for hypothetical 11. When you say against the "stop" I think you mean some kind of peg. That is something I was thinking about drawing into the picture but didn't. It's silly of me to think that a spring won't stretch out more but I guess I have imaginative structural science. So yeah, there totally needs to be a peg there to keep it from going further than where it pushes out at 6 oclock. The distance the brown line (spring) is able to push out at 6 oclock should be the distance that the rest of the levers rest on the left side.

I'm not sure by your description but I think it sounds like your spring was too strong or your design was completely different. If you have blue prints of your design that would help me understand I think. I'm interested to know if you later build this kind of design again.

[Dave Roberts]

Sorry, I never save drawings. Actually, I went much farther with this design than described. At one point I used two different sized springs (a weaker one to hopefully accelerate the fall of the arm). Even if successful, I did not feel that any significant power could be achieved.
I have no future plans to proceed with this design but to provide constant rotation, I like the concept and feel it may have possibilities.
BTW - I used to just jump into a new design but have gotten wiser and do a lot more thinking about a concept. It always seems that a new concept has to work, euphoria sets in, a build begins, reality sets in and then more and more modifications until the mind sends you in a new direction. It appears that because of all of Bessler's clues, no matter what you build, it may be Bessler's Wheel design.
As soon as my foot heals, I will be working on a new design.

[helloha]

a wm2d version of the "hypothetical 12" wheels based on your design, enjoy

[ruggerodk]

Reminds me of this mech.:

When spinning - I wonder how much energy are collected into those springs..?

Anyone comfortable of doing a w2md sim of this?

regards
ruggero ;-)

[helloha]

a "spring lever" mech model in wm2d

[helloha]

a wm2d version of the "hypothetical 11" wheels

[preoccupied]

Once again I have an idea storming but I don't know enough about mechanics to put it into numbers. What if a lever were falling and it pulled on a pulley to lift a weight, how much force exists for the lever and how much for the pulley? The pulley should just be the weight being lifted, as it is being lifted straight up. The lever will have less force the more vertical it is and the most when it is horizontal but how much? And what if the string is attached further in on the lever, how much leverage gain does that give? Did anybody employ lever pulley action in their ideas?

EDIT: I seem to have already asked about this before.

[rlortie]

Your lever is of the second class, the load is shared by the pivot and the levered weight, a wheelbarrow is a prime example of a second class lever.

The Pe force of both the lifting mass and the levered mass is applied to the pulley, It will seek COM and when it does you will know the keel point.

The force applied to the rope from pulley to levered weight will be greater than the vertical lifting mass due to the angular pull. This counts for the reason why cranes use larger cable for slings than the lifting or "whip" line.

As the angle formed by the sling leg and the horizontal line decreases, the rated capacity of the sling also decreases. In other words, the smaller the angle between the sling leg and the horizontal, the greater the stress on the sling leg and the smaller (lighter) the load the sling can safely support. Larger (heavier) loads can be safely moved if the weight of the load is distributed among more sling legs.

Ralph