Excess Torque Hypothesis : Mechanical Sustainable Imbalance Possibilities ( <>> ) ?

[raj]

Making SOUND needs energy.

KNOCKING sound in wheel is losing energy.

Raj

[WaltzCee]

So, does adding conneting strings help a mechanism like THXs MT13?
https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 869#180869
He already has the ramp. Does adding strings of a certain length actually help pull up, or will it hinder the weights already lifted around 12:00?

First you bring in the smoke.
Then the mirrors.
Now you can attach a few strings.

[Tarsier79]

The other thing about the MT13 build, it turns when he lifts the weight. In effect, he is removing the weight nearly completely from the wheel. I imagine a reactionless lift still connected to the wheel would produce a similar but smaller forward torque.

[Georg Künstler]

Raj wrote:

Making SOUND needs energy.

KNOCKING sound in wheel is losing energy.

True from the position of the beater, false in the postion of the receiver.
Also here you have an energy transfer from one object to an other.

An ear is also a receiver of energy.

[daxwc]

T79:

The other thing about the MT13 build, it turns when he lifts the weight. In effect, he is removing the weight nearly completely from the wheel. I imagine a reactionless lift still connected to the wheel would produce a similar but smaller forward torque.

Yes, If you can create full symmetry and balance in rotation of the lifting mechanism and weights or use a RB. But you can not take your mechanical advantage of the lift and be short on distance straight up. My opinion you need to take your distance loss horizontally but if you did take it straight up you need to make sure you suck the very bottom in the same amount as the shortage. So the material flow of the wheel would be more elliptical.

[Tarsier79]

I don't see the advantage in horizontal movements on a wheel.

[daxwc]

T79:

I don't see the advantage in horizontal movements on a wheel.

Where is the most torque you can put to an axle with a weight? It is straight horizontal at 90 degrees from vertical.

How is overbalance created; its by torqueing around the axle. It is not by how much you let it hang underneath the axle or over top of the axle. So preferred line maybe would be 90 degrees then as it falls start raising it up, then hopefully have the next weight torqueing at 90 degrees behind it to carry it through.

[daxwc]

Question: If you are in an elevator standing on a scale and as the elevator goes down you raise a bowling ball from your feet to over your head. What does the scale read during the action more, less or the same?

[daxwc]

If you were just being motionless in the downward elevator the scale would read less depending on the rate of acceleration downwards all the way to zero for freefall.

Now if you raise the bowling ball there is an opposite reactionary force downwards. So let’s say you and the bowling ball weigh 90% of original weight on an elevator going downwards. You could find a rate of acceleration upwards of the bowling ball that then brings the scale back to 100%

So now going back to the original conversation; torqueing around an axle puts another crinkle into the mix. This is due to angle of the weight torqueing on the axle. Same scenario except instead of an elevator a see-saw with the fulcrum in the middle; does lifting the bowling ball add torque? What if you lift and maintain your 90 degrees? Even better what if you lift and maintain your radius (horizontal length) for part of the way down before moving it back in?

[Georg Künstler]

Hi daxwc,
your thougts are correct.

when you follow Besslers words, then the weights act in pairs, two and two.
and an other sentence said, one of the weights is going to the rim, the other to the center.

So the function in and out is a combined, synchronized movement of 2 weights.

Even better what if you lift and maintain your radius (horizontal length) for part of the way down before moving it back in?

This type of movement can only happen if you allow the bar to move sidewards. You change the radius.
When this will happen, then you have also torque.
You have the excess torque.

[WaltzCee]

I enjoy threads that make me think.

Thanks Fletcher.

[raj]

Georg,

One needs not only eyes but open mind to see your excellent expose of what is really needed when concepts are presented.

[Georg Künstler]

Thanks Ray,
as I had described, first have a look to a creation of an undamped mechanical oscillation.

When you put 2 weights on the Apologia wheel, in the top upper chambers, you will get an instable condition. Imbalance.

With this condition we have Besslers condition Well balanced.
The Apologia wheel is top heavy.

Any degree turned left or right the wheel begins to turn.
I think you can confirm this.
You normally should detect that one weight is going up, shortening the lever
and one is going down extending the lever arm.
Please confirm what I had told. Is my view right ?

AS a result the wheel will turn until all masses are in the down position.
Game over.
Until we make a modification with a third weight.
I will explain it in the next post.

[thx4]

The other thing about the MT13 build, it turns when he lifts the weight. In effect, he is removing the weight nearly completely from the wheel. I imagine a reactionless lift still connected to the wheel would produce a similar but smaller forward torque.

Bravo T79, you got it right :)
I move the weight from one place to another, that's the secret of B. I understand that he understood that it would be very hard to sell ... And one weight lifts 4 that's true too.

So there are 2 bad news.

1) The files will be available for free, and for some I can even print some of them.
2) There will be no patent given the presence and the fuss on the internet (smile).
The good news is that the elevator (the word is weak) is being printed, which means that tomorrow morning I'll know and so will you if I'm right, otherwise I'll be back much, much later. :) maybe it's also a good news :)

A++

PS; Georg you know that in electronics the oscillation is totally mastered, do a research, no patent is subject to a free amplification, see any anomaly in physics on the oscillation. I have enormous confidence in physics even if ...

you have an energy transfer from one object to an other.

it's not a discovery.

[Fletcher]

UPDATE :

Topic Title .. Excess Torque Hypothesis : Mechanical Sustainable Imbalance Possibilities ( <>> ) ?

The guts of this investigation adventure in 2021 was a series of sim experiments and a mock-up build or two to test the hypothesis that "Excess Torque" (excess impetus) could be mechanically produced and sustained via the use of a Ramelli Balance with additions.

i.e.

1. Create A Torque Balanced Sub-System (No BIAS) ! - the Ramelli re .. torque cancelling / nulling mechanics.

2. Add Back An Imbalance Structure (BIAS) ! - the looped chain offset from Center of Rotation re .. introduce a positive torque.

The sim I was finally able to produce without crashing my laptop proved that this arrangement was not enough to have a runner. IOW's even tho the system COM (black and white circle) was permanently displaced to the right of the axle it still moved around like a smile on a smiley face and settled at its position of least GPE (i.e. balance / no torque).

As you can now see with the animation of a similar sim I updated this morning the addition of the looped chain does create a torque, but it is short lived and not asymmetric and the whole thing becomes balanced and stops as the mass of the chain is evenly distributed on the lifting levers of the Ramelli. ... IOW's a very complicated Pendulum with just as much success of self-sustaining its movement indefinitely !

..............

This result, above all other things I had ever attempted, convinced me more than ever that even a perfectly balanced sub-system ( unbiased ) that was augmented by an obviously OOB chain addition ( + bias ) could not bring about a self-moving runner.

If that were to be achieved a runner needed more than mechanically simple levers and weights and OOB, was my inescapable conclusion ! ... You be the judge !



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