Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Fletcher
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Fletcher »

Hi Shadow .. let me point out general observations to keep in back-of-mind imo ..

Mt's 44 and 48 are ball/sphere transfer, non-working, overbalance wheel formats - of which there have been ( and still are ) many variations thru the ages, right from the time of da Vinci for example .. B. tells us in his accompanying notes to those two Mt's that completely different structures are required, and 'they' need to be applied to these wheels, which in turn will make them both bona-fide PM runners ..

We also can observe that Mt15 is not a ball/sphere transfer overbalance wheel, but of a completely different non-working overbalancing type ( also very common principles ) - and note that B. says the Prime Mover is not to be seen or deduced - it is completely absent from the picture and no hint of it can be deduced from the picture alone - tho it is just as obvious as for Mt's 44 and 48 that a very-real physical structure must be added and applied to these non-runners so they can become runners ..

What they have in common is that all 3 show an overbalance - Mt15 goes a step further when B. tells us of a superior weight / overbalance required - he stresses that in Mt15 imo ..

.. from JC's MT ..

MT Digital Copy .. No. 15 This ratchet-wheel derives from the previous model, except that the tensions are somewhat longer and have an additional special weight at the external ends. From this drawing alone, however, nothing of the prime mover's source can be seen or deduced although the figure shows the superior weight.

2007 MT Hard Copy .. No. 15. This ratchet-wheel derives from the previous model, except that the tensioners are somewhat longer and have an additional special weight at the outer ends. From this drawing alone, however, nothing of the prime mover's source can be seen or deduced although the figure shows the overbalance.
Comment .. Relating this back to the obvious verbal prod for a need for additional structures ( to be applied ) for Mt 44 and 48, and general forum observations ( including yours ) that to be functional runners they need more "energy" to speed them up to reset and "gain", and have residual rotational momentum as "runners" - then I propose that the additional structures ( aka applied Prime Mover(s) ) create repeating conditions for turning the wheels faster, as contrasted to the logic of attempting to lift individual ball / spheres with less force on the ascending side ..

............

ETA .. imo, to have a runner ..

1. we either find a way to repeatedly lift a weight for less energy ( Work Done ) cost ..

2. we find a way in a repeating fashion to speed the wheel up / boost its speed, so that it automatically carries on thru to reset etc - this would apply equally well to ball / sphere, and lever-weight overbalancing types without any discrimination ..
Last edited by Fletcher on Sun Oct 20, 2024 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

This is one of the latest modifications to the lever idea that I posted recently.

The sequence of actions that it goes through to operate are not as simple as you may think.

For now I will post it with a brief description and let people make their own minds up.

It basically goes from having its centre of gravity at the axle to lifting its centre of gravity above the axle.

A spring is used to make things happen better but some of the simulations I have done suggest that it can also be done without a spring.

My feeling is that we are move closer and closer to what Bessler did. In my opinion the prime mover had the ability to lift its centre of gravity.

Graham
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Fletcher »

... For now I will post it with a brief description and let people make their own minds up.

It basically goes from having its centre of gravity at the axle to lifting its centre of gravity above the axle.

Hey Graham .. both sides are not the same/identical as far as I can see - look at the lever and pivot point connections ? ..

When the sim is run the lever system rotates CW because the lhs mass is part-supported ( takes some of its weight ) by the fixed to background 45 degree slope, until it is not .. ultimately it has to be reset at some stage ..

I think someone like Shadow or RH46 who are competent with Algodoo can confirm your build and results - I have no way of telling if the system COM ( of the lever arrangement ) is lifted to being top-heavy above the axle or not ?! - there doesn't appear to be a display for this ?!
My feeling is that we are move closer and closer to what Bessler did. In my opinion the prime mover had the ability to lift its centre of gravity.
What we know from B's. statements ( particularly DT and AP ) is that his wheels could not find their balance ( keel ) position - the weights must stay out of the center of gravity ( as he said it to be in DT ) .. it is perhaps progress to recognize that tweaking a non-runner will not make it into a runner - and that to transform a non-runner required completely different structures to be attached, imo ..
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Fletcher »

And why I feel so strongly that we can't ever tweak our way to a runner is because of the conclusive sims I published here some 6 months ago - where the weights rode down and around one half of the wheel ( D ) and once crossing the vertical axle line were magically teleported back up to their original height to start the torque and descent again - n.b. this was done by having the sim change the mass of each weight each side of the axle line from a set amount to near-zero and back again ..

Refresher .. the sim wheels were about 12 feet diameter and had to achieve between 40 and 50 RPM approximately, with massive acceleration in just 1 and 1/2 turns as the witnesses reported - the sims did achieve this but with an entirely artificial and gross overbalance factor, albeit entirely detached from mechanical reality, and induced by electronic legerdemain .. conclusion .. no "tweak" would be anywhere sufficient for that level of 'hard-to-miss' overbalance and acceleration required ..
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

Ok I am going to do my best to describe the action of the lever which I think is interesting.

I am going to show pictures along the way.

This first picture shows the COG of the lever as a whole and you can see that the COG sits just to the left of the axle and that is because the left large weight is further away from the axle than the right one.

The second picture is the same but I have now exaggerated the weight of the smaller weights taking them to 10kg and this is to show that they are at an equal distance from the central line and the COG has not changed on the Y axis.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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This next picture is showing that the COG of the lever as a whole has dropped as the lever begins to move and the left large weight has moved further down in relation to the lever main beam. It needs to be pointed out though that at no time does the GPE of either of the weights on the left drop. Their GPE only increases.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

These next two pictures are showing that the COG of the lever as a whole has risen. If you look very carefully at the first picture you can see it. The next picture is the same but once again I have increased the weight of the smaller weights in order to exaggerate it so it can be seen more easily.

I will leave it there but I do have more to say about this and why I think it could turn out to be important.

Graham
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by SHADOW »

Bonjour Fletcher,
Si j'ai bien préssenti votre recherche, vous cherchez un mécanisme s'apparentant au système d'entretient de la rotation de la toupie ou du cerceau, alimenté par la rotation de la roue!

Hi Fletcher,
If I have understand your research, you are looking for a mechanism similar to the maintenance system of the rotation of the spinning top or hoop, powered by the rotation of the wheel!
Last edited by SHADOW on Tue Oct 22, 2024 9:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by thx4 »

Fletcher wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 9:19 pm
MT Digital Copy .. No. 15 This ratchet-wheel derives from the previous model, except that the tensions are somewhat longer and have an additional special weight at the external ends.
@fletcher 2 choses si tu peux me répondre.
C'est quoi un poids spécial ?
La notion de moteur est dérangeante, telle qu'ont la décrit ici, elle serait un ajout à, un ajout à quoi ?
Puisque si tu as un mouvement qui se réinitialise continuellement c'est lui le moteur. Il ne peut y avoir de création d'énergie, comment tu d'écrirais ce qu'il se passe.


@fletcher 2 things if you can answer me.
What is a special weight?
The notion of a motor is disturbing, as described here, it would be an addition to, an addition to what?
Because if you have a movement that continually resets itself, it's the motor. There can be no creation of energy, so how would you describe what's going on?
Not everything I present is functional, but a surprise can't be completely ruled out.Greetings.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Fletcher »

SHADOW wrote:
Hi Fletcher,

If I have understand your research, you are looking for a mechanism similar to the maintenance system of the rotation of the spinning top or hoop, powered by the rotation of the wheel !
Hi Shadow .. yes, that is very correct ! ..

Background for your consideration .. Many of us believe in the importance of the Toy's Page, if only we could correctly interpret its meaning ..

You will be aware that Item 5. [ bottom of page ] ( i.e. the upright spinning top ) was likely a later hand-drawn addition to the printed woodcut, along with the written comment from B. about children games etc, and his sage comment 'should we know how to apply them' etc ? ..

You may also be aware of Wagner's comments from his Critiques .. "Finally, Herr Orffyreus supposedly gets to the root of the matter when he asserts that children in the lane play with his perpetual motion or so-called superior force".

Here Wagner makes the claim that B. has publicly said children in the street or road can be seen playing with his perpetual motion - this is of course quite vague, and as Wagner points out this could be any mechanics - however, he also says B. called it "superior force" ! - what superior force could that imply ? ..

My reasoning .. children of the time played with many common toys and games in the lanes of many cities in Europe etc - one of those toys was the spinning top game - where the top is "whipped" along giving it a 'jolt' of increased RKE / angular momentum i.e. once spinning fast it is upright until frictional losses slow it down and it begins to wobble and eventually topple over - so a stick and articulated lash ( i.e. flail ) are used to periodically whip the top along so that it regains RKE and stands fully upright again, until it needs to be "re-engergized' again ( repeating ) .. you will have noted that in the Toy's Page the upright spinning top is shown in some detail, but nothing of the important stick and string/rope flail is to be seen in the drawing i.e. it is omitted, whether purposely or not - however this has a direct and obvious connection to Wagner's comments about children playing with a superior force in the lane imo ..

A second common game seen in the streets of the time, and today, is the hoop tapping game - where a child runs beside a rolling upright hoop periodically tapping it along in the direction it is rolling - the stick tapping can be used to not only repeatedly give the hoop greater RKE / angular momentum, but was also used to steer the hoop down the road if it went off course - that's not required for a mounted wheel ;7) ..

My conclusions are that either the top-whipping or hoop-tapping games/toys seen in the streets both equally well demonstrate the "general concept" of an intermittent repeated re-engergizing ( i.e. energy top-up / superior-force ) given to a rotating system !

And since all must go around together in a public B. wheel ( paraphrased ) then the mechanism to periodically input the extra energy required to maintain self-rotation ( and do Work ) comes from the 'periodic' Prime Mover ( energizer ) input, working in positive-feedback in tandem with the overbalance wheel secondary system ..

And if a believer in Classical Mechanics and Physics a hypothesis might be that a 'free' source of earthly momentum is given to the earth-bound wheel, which might well fit the bill for where this energy ultimately came from, imo ..

.................

@ thx4 .. I'm under the pump here so will get to your questions over the next few days hopefully - they are important questions and to do you justice I have to find and update some old pictures in my files to fully describe what I believe MT15 shows ..
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Won't have time today to get fully into it, but will start the ball rolling .. I will keep it brief as I can, as I have previously given greater detail ..

Before explaining my deductions about MT15 I have to set the scene in proper context ..

............

Bessler was a complex and educated man - he had an active interest in formal and informal organizations and societies such as the Rosicrucians ( Free Masons ) - as such, evidentially, he used and dabbled in codes, ciphers, and sacred geometry etc .. he was also a highly religious man, being a practicing Christian .. this 'framework' influenced and ran thru his veins into everyday life, and the choices he made on a daily basis - part of his moral code and philosophy was the basic tenet of honesty ..

Profiling him on his background and influences it is imo highly unlikely that B. would accidentally or unintentionally give anything away about his mechanical weight lifting method ( gaining GPE to cause sustainable overbalance ) in his published books and pamphlets ( e.g. GB, AP, DT ) .. however, we have two other valuable sources of information to closely consider - one, is the witness statements/letters, and the second is his unpublished private folio of machines we call MT ( re. John Collins MT ) - we already know from his hand written frontispiece in MT that he removed certain drawings and replaced them with others after his arrest, and that he tells us to look for movement and a motion; but he is not going to spoon-feed us his mechanical answer to his runners ( these pages were removed ) - we will have to deduce it, and back-engineer the principles behind its operation ..

It is my belief that even in his private unpublished MT collection that B. would always be a prisoner to his background and influences and it would show up as "tells" if we looked for them - i.e. that from a psychology perspective he could no more escape "tells" than we can, like reading a poker player ( some are better at disguising there "tells" than others, but all will give them ) - and make no mistake B. was playing poker with future generations of researchers .. so I look for the "tells", some are overt and some more covert imo ..

..............

MT appears to be a progression of machines and mechanical concepts in his search for PM .. logically, and following convention, like most narratives, it will have a beginning introducing the characters and the plot, a fleshed out middle giving bulk and further context to the story, and a conclusion drawing the story to an end .. we know the conclusion was removed and probably replaced by the Toy's Page - amongst this setting B's. psychological and philosophical influences would come thru in some shape or form, to a greater or lesser degree, imo ..

..............

In MT B. starts out at MT9 telling us there is a Zusammen Gehangten ( Hang Together ) Principle - In MT10 he tells us that there is a 'correct handle-construction' - in MT11 he tells us that 2 systems can be interesting - in MT12 he tells us that the external fixed ramp causes a great deal of shaking - our own experiments tell us that external fixed ramps are a dead-end because they share the weight of the lever-weights ( i.e. contact force at right angles to the ramp ) etc causing an increased back-torque which 'quickly' kills-it-deader-than-a-dodo ..

... BUT ... in MT13 some interesting things begin to happen imo ..

First off - the CCW wheel consists of lever-weights ( lw ) and an axle mounted hanging Counter-Weight ( e.g. Artificial Horizon [AH] ) - at the top of the AH is a small wheel that depresses the lw as it runs over it, theoretically causing the lw to rise upwards its end weight to give it GPE, and subsequent torque - B. points out that there is much friction, and it would run well if someone were there to continually lift the lws at the top of the wheel as it rotated - he unexpectedly enhances the narrative further by saying that they should lift the lws "like lightening" i.e. very fast .. our own experiments and experience tells us that a heavy hanging AH like shown is nothing more than a "fixed external ramp' analogue ( like MT12 ), with the exact same failings of producing much show-stopping back-torque which quickly slows and stops the wheel ..

So what is so important about MT13 imo ?

It is his "tells" starting to come thru imo - I think of it as "The 12 Disciples + The Prime Mover" ( 12 disciples, and jesus, at the last supper ) - however, because this is near the beginning of the collection it is not to be taken as gospel/literal mechanisms - simply showing that weights ( lws ) need to be lifted fast to give them GPE and subsequent wheel torque, and that the Prime Mover ( for his first working 'private' PM runner prototype in 1712 imo ) was likely a pendulum arrangement ( & dual pendulums in the DT engravings ) able to swing back and forward which interacted ( positive feed-back ) with the secondary weight shifting system to lift the lws fast and give them GPE etc etc to self-sustain its rotation - obviously from the woodcut there are 12 lws and 1 AH .. n.b. his later public wheels changed out the external pendulum Prime Mover for an internal "all-must-go-around-togther" MOI changer Prime Mover which I'll discuss at a later date ..

..............

Image

..............

Then before MT15 we have MT14 which share similar mechanics - time is moving on so will post the pics I've redone for you to look more closely at and follow - you can see that the hanging lws are lifted at the top-of-wheel and these pull up weighted cross-tensioners to reinforce the supposed overbalancing - there are some mistakes in this woodcut - there are 23 lws when there should be 24, the cross-tensioners attach every second lw but he gets it wrong .. however this is the basis for the MT15 mechanics which I'll get to when I next can ..

..............
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Very good Fletcher I like the build-up. You are right MT 13 is very much like MT 12; but a ramp that can swing. When I first started this quest I would have said the two have nothing in common as far as a line of logic progression.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Hi dax .. it's the ultimate what/who-dunnit ..

Even Bessler in MT, subconsciously or otherwise, must build the story of his Prime Mover in steps to a logical climax, even if the final who-dunnit was technically removed ..

IMO, MT13 is an overt tip-of-the-hat to his strong personal religious beliefs, and he publicly attributing his PM success to God in his books - as well as a chance to set the stage and introduce the main actors in his play ..

.............
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

Hi Fletcher I have been following your posts with interest to see where you are going with it.

One that stood out was the suggestion that Bessler may have been a Freemason.

I've heard other people suggest that other people involved with Bessler were Freemasons.

Is there any proof that certain people in the Bessler history were Freemasons?

Graham
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Fletcher »

You'd have to consult Oystien or perhaps dax Graham ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucianism

The precursor to Freemasons was the Rose Cross ( Rosicrucians ) started in the early 17th century in Kassel in Germany ..

Karl was the patron to Bessler, and B. sent him birthday cards with chronograms in them - along with many uses of codes and sacred geometry - it seems highly probable that Karl was a member, and probably Bessler too, amongst other prominent people in Germany and Europe etc ..
Last edited by Fletcher on Sat Oct 26, 2024 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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