Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

In Jim's defence, I believe that the problem lies with the fact that he is unable to fully explain the principles behind his theory in a public domain, as I'm certain that he is holding back with a view to patent a device that has this operating principle at it's core.

I, personally, do not believe that CF will form a part or all of the energy which drives a wheel past 99% efficency as, imho, it is an impeding force only. But that is only my opinion, so I have no right to dispell Jim's beliefs until it is absolutely proven otherwise.

Likewise, in regards to Trevor's much maligned Multi-Lever principle, it is not for others to disparage to the point of making personal attacks.No individual as the right to do that within this forum because we are all guilty of 'believing' strongly in one theory or another.

Chris

Hi Chris, I went paint balling, with the higher pack with that one! I have done my time so there is no hurry, and it is a low priority, I do have a video from last year I want to post though but no £50 pounds for the soft ware.

I did fock up a couple of weeks ago, so I did the right thing and moved the thread to fraud!

With respect, Trevor

[triplock]

'Idiot. With Respect'

LMFAO. I nearly spat out my morning coffee. Bless Trevor, he is trying as I've noticed a more reasoned approach of late ;-)

Chris

[oldNick]

Hi Jim_mich

The ice skater spins slowly with arms out stretched, the weight of the hands spinning faster than the weight of the rest of the body. When the skater brings their arms in the whole body speeds up.

Does the body speed up because of the transference of the speed of the hands alone ? or is it because the weight of the hands have become greater than the rest of the body due to C.F.?

So that's how a gyroscope does what it does....lol

you don't need to answer this ...but do you have a central stator on your machine ?

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi All,

OK guys let me put it another way! "Mass in Motion" in my opinion, planetary movements requires the perpetual input force from Gravity’s! The Earth will take a straight line path (path A ) unless another force is acting upon the Earth, path A is it true trajectory, so its forced orbital trajectory ( path B ) will require a energy input, as work has to be done to sustain a orbital trajectory, whereas no work is needed to sustain a straight line trajectory (path A)!

If I am a Idiot for thinking this, so be it!!!

With respect Trevor

[daxwc]

Trevor Lyn Whatford every planets trajectory is changing every orbit; this does not mean gravity is adding energy. It means energy is changing forms, such as from rotational to heat.
Example: The radius of the moon's orbit is increasing by 3.8 cm/year as has been measured with great accuracy using the laser reflectors installed on the moon by Apollo 11. It is not like you have not been told this before by members; so why do you assert yourself as “there is no proof�.

You need to start thinking of the orbits more in the line of pendulums and energy is being lost every orbit.

http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_plan.html
1. Where Does the Energy Come From?
As Europa orbits Jupiter, it is deformed by enormous gravitational forces. This kneading of Europa's thick, icy surface would create sufficient friction to heat the core and possibly melt some of the ice. If energy is created, where does it come from? Does this affect the orbit?
The energy comes from the orbital and rotational energy of the system. The first thing that will usually happen is that the rotation of the moon will slow down until it is locked, with one face always pointed towards the planet. The Earth's Moon and many other moons in the solar system have already reached this point. The next thing that happens is that the orbit of the moon gets larger and the planet's spinning slows down. Both have to happen at the same time in order to conserve angular momentum while draining energy from the system. Because of ocean tides on the Earth, the Moon is getting farther away and the Earth's day is getting longer. It is the same process.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... e-sun.html
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/a ... t99657.htm
http://novan.com/earth.htm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story ... ation.html

[murilo]

Hi All,

OK guys let me put it another way! "Mass in Motion" in my opinion, planetary movements requires the perpetual input force from Gravity’s! The Earth will take a straight line path (path A ) unless another force is acting upon the Earth, path A is it true trajectory, so its forced orbital trajectory ( path B ) will require a energy input, as work has to be done to sustain a orbital trajectory, whereas no work is needed to sustain a straight line trajectory (path A)!

If I am a Idiot for thinking this, so be it!!!

With respect Trevor

Respected Trevor,
I do agree with your person: the complete and total wide movement, or moving, is one of generalized laws playing in Universe!
Since ever, this plays from level macro to smaller possible sub-particle!
TC brov!
M

[daxwc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation ... sLoRxVfT4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59qniggFpFQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef9qqk0CvFc

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi, Murilo, Daxwc, and all,

I have moved my above post to, The application of Bessler’s Physics to Bessler’s problem! Thread! As it is not on topic on Jims thread.

Regards, Trevor

[eccentrically1]

So instead of your constant uninformed rants and tirades why don't you just complete your Proof of Concept and prove everybody wrong?

Has it ever crossed your mind than just maybe I have completed a working wheel and that I do know what I'm talking about?

There is no concept ever defined or taught about "useable energy" in Physics. This is a total fantasy.

So you're ignorant and have never learned about ectropy?

In thermodynamics, ectropy is a measure of the tendency of a dynamical system to do useful work and grow more organized. Ectropy, in a loose sense, can be thought of as the opposite of entropy. Ectropy is minus entropy. That is, instead of saying "lose entropy" you can say "gain ectropy", instead of saying "gain entropy" you can say "lose ectropy".

The term was introduced in the late 20th century by mathematician and philosopher Willard Van Orman Quine and is often more intuitive than its counterpart. The term's merit is that in order to understand a concept, it can be useful to look at it from the other side. Sloppily speaking, ectropy signifies order; slightly more exactly, usable energy. Actually, what we call energy is often ectropy.

The Earth, for example, gets electromagnetic waves from the sun and sends electromagnetic waves back into space, but the incoming waves have shorter wavelengths (higher frequencies) and therefore more ectropy. So the Earth's ectropy is increased by the sun. When we eat, we take in ectropy from the food.

For any perpetual motion wheel to work, the wheel needs to increase its ectropy. In other words, it needs to increase the usable harnessable energy within the device.

You might want to look into the origin of what you keep calling the 1st Law. The full name is the First Law of Thermodynamics. It pertains to the conversion of heat to work and work to heat. About 300 years ago, during Bessler's time, physics people made an assumption that perpetual motion was impossible. About 100 years ago physics people perpetuated that assumption and incorporated it into the new Thermodynamic Laws. You have been taught Conservation of Energy. There is no such law. There is is the First Law of Thermodynamics that says energy is conserved when converted from heat to work and from work to heat, and in similar thermal to dynamic situations. The Thermodynamics Laws are not motion laws.

There is no Conservation of Kinetic Energy Law. The laws which govern kinetic energy and kinetic motion are Newton's Laws of Motion. Newton's Laws follow conservation of motion and not conservation of energy. There is a difference.

The conservation of energy law covers kinetic energy. Energy comes in two basic forms, potential and kinetic. So

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

covers all forms of energy. Motion is kinetic energy, so motion is converted into motion and into other forms (heat and sound). a wheel and axle won't produce its own motion (kinetic energy) unless there is potential energy inside of it, ready to be converted to kinetic energy which could rotate it, or an external source of energy is used. Their kinetic energy must be provided somehow.

Sorry it took so long to respond, I have a honeydo list.

[Furcurequs]

Yes J.S.O.,reading some of the stuff here and the characters is surreal,my comparison would be "Under Milk wood"by Dylan Thomas,we are all there.....On the subject of Copyright/Patents etc.which is written enormously about here and many have differing viewpoints,i'm curious have any of you guys actually sold something you have invented "copyright/patented"or otherwise,i'm not talking about grants etc.for failed projects ,backers funding etc.but actually "sold "something for lets say £20k or over or is it all "hot air"wannabe type talk.?...Good Luck.

Rasselasss, what kind of question is that?!

Surely you know that we perpetual motion machine inventors don't waste any of our precious time trying to come up with the kinds of trivial inventions that ordinary inventors can invent and sell!

...and, well, since none of us have actually been succesful yet (that I know of, at least), then...

YES! Of course, we are wannabes!

Why? Aren't you, too?

Although I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek here, at least for me there may actually be a little bit of truth in this. For me it's about following my inspirations and passions and even trying to perhaps uncover some truths that others might have overlooked. It's not at all for me about inventing some sort of widget just to make some money.

Actually, I've instead probably sacrificed a considerable amount of money trying to find the freedom to pursue my own interests - by not pursuing a professional "career" and whatnot.

I may have indirectly even sacrificed my health by not having had much money and not living in a place with decent medical care when I happened to have gotten some sort of bug (I suspect it was).

Anyway, if any one of my several (and still questionable) inventive ideas actually was to work, it would be something fairly radical. One of my possible re-inventions, though, that actually does seem to work is not necessarily that radical in a technical sense, but there's a chance that it might be (and once was) in a historical sense (maybe).

I've not - yet - patented anything, however.

Most of my creative output actually may be musical. I've been coming up with the occasional song and music inspiration since the late 1980's. Those would, of course, have been copyrighted from the moment I recorded them onto tape or more recently the computer. So, I have lots of copyrighted but unpublished music. My health problems haven't really allowed me to pursue that. ...though if I don't get back on my feet soon, I may have to consider trying to get at least some of the stuff into the hands of others rather than holding out the hope of trying to eventually do professional recordings myself.

Anyway, that's my situation.

Take care.

Dwayne

[rasselasss]

Dwayne,i have experience of selling my products,the reason i asked the question was because patent/copyright is a subject talked endlessly here.Strangely enough there was only 4 replies so i speak with the knowledge i have of how i sell my ideas....To me Bessler was his own worst enemy(i don't deny his achievement and believe he was not a fraud),when selling anything the golden rule is never to give the impression you are smarter or more clever than those you are selling to,once you gain their confidence what you want is attainable,obviously the product must be "unique"no matter what it is,research is all important to find the "key players"and then many weeks of corresponding for appointments,interviews etc., much shoe leather worn out walking and Never give all the info.just the golden titbit to get through the door....Good Luck.....Just to add in my correspondence letters to hopefull "buyers"i leave them in no doubt of my status and always include this heading in the communication.."I am a free firm,no ring no combine"..thus they are assured of my ability to do business,answerable to no-one only myself.

[Tarsier79]

I believe the ice skater cant keep on spinning, regardless of how she pumps her arms. The total energy available is in entropy.


ADD: Woops, had internet troubles on my ph, and wasn't responding to the relevant conversation.

[Furcurequs]

Dwayne,i have experience of selling my products,the reason i asked the question was because patent/copyright is a subject talked endlessly here.Strangely enough there was only 4 replies so i speak with the knowledge i have of how i sell my ideas....To me Bessler was his own worst enemy(i don't deny his achievement and believe he was not a fraud),when selling anything the golden rule is never to give the impression you are smarter or more clever than those you are selling to,once you gain their confidence what you want is attainable,obviously the product must be "unique"no matter what it is,research is all important to find the "key players"and then many weeks of corresponding for appointments,interviews etc., much shoe leather worn out walking and Never give all the info.just the golden titbit to get through the door....Good Luck.....Just to add in my correspondence letters to hopefull "buyers"i leave them in no doubt of my status and always include this heading in the communication.."I am a free firm,no ring no combine"..thus they are assured of my ability to do business,answerable to no-one only myself.

Hey again, rasselasss.

I'm sure it's rewarding to actually make money off of your own ideas. I had hoped to one day eventually do that myself, and ever since I was a kid, I guess.

I agree with you about Bessler. If he had what he claimed, and I do believe the story has a ring of truth to it, then he was his own worst enemy.

As I've said before, I believe he should have just made a deal on his day's equivalent of a handshake - showing that he could treat his potential business partners with respect and work with them in good faith.

It seems to me his real issues might have been more due to a fear of losing control and finally having to give up "his precious" - his secret - rather than just the desire for the money itself, however.

I know I have a problem with this in regards to some of my own creative output. ...and it may be even worse now that I've lost my comfort and health. There's certainly a desire to cling to something - and, sadly, I don't have my blanky anymore! ...lol

With my music, if I were to make "albums", I would want them to be "works of art" - and so there's a desire to have total control and not have to answer to anyone else.

I certainly don't like thinking of my "artwork" as just a "product", even though the best of artwork eventually does end up as that, I guess.

Wanting total control, though, seems to mean I don't get anything finished. ...for there is always something standing in the way of that - and yet things that more business oriented people might just farm out to others so as to just getterdone.

...like fixing those broken keys on the keyboard or replacing the broken strings on the guitar, or getting the recording software up and running, etc...

Heck, business people would just spend the big bucks and book time in a real recording studio.

They might want to hire session musicians to play some of the parts instead of letting me play everything, though!

You spoke about the shoe leather. I was just about to go pound the pavement when my health problems began, so I had actually been preparing for that stage. I even thought I might have actually had enough decent material.

...but now due to the health problems I'm in a bit of a pickle. Maybe I could still do the equivalent of knocking on those doors via the internet, but I don't know that I could have enough functional time to record much of anything myself or to travel or do other things that might be required..

Music is rather subjective, too, so even if it were unique, it might be a bit harder to sell than that free energy machine.

Anyway, thanks for wishing me luck.

Good luck yourself.

Dwayne

[rasselasss]

Dwayne,i know little about the Music industry...but this much i do know,you have said your health's not good and please take this with goodwill intention...some of my ideas are beyond my capabilities and to put into the market place i HAVE to trust third parties to persue to fruitation ,be sure, theres always the possibility to get ripped off but its better than letting it die like a rose in the bud....just a thought..Why not get someone of your music friends to play/sing and blitz youtube with composed/wrote by yourself in the opening credits in large writing...ifs its good it WILL be noticed by those people that count...i think copyright is recognised by the inclusion of the credit....you have nothing to lose and far better to try than have regret....Sincerely Good Luck ......Just to add..over here the pop groups "stiff little fingers"and "them"started off by doing gigs in clubs and different venues for no payment....

[Furcurequs]

rasselasss,

First of all, sorry it's taken me awhile to respond.

Thanks for the advice. There are aspects of the music business that I really wouldn't be interested in nor would I really be suited for handling, so I certainly wouldn't mind others doing those things. The creative side, however, I guess I'm almost obsessive about and if I had my health I probably would be capable of doing myself. I've lost quite a few years now to the health problems, though, and so I may need to change my thinking.

If my health doesn't improve in the next year or two, I almost certainly should do the sorts of things you've suggested. After making personal sacrifices to follow my muse, it would indeed be a shame to let the fruits of my labor and inspirations wither on the vine. I now have music dating back 25 years that very few have heard, though I typically get rather positive responses when I do let people hear some of it.

I don't know about letting any of my friends play my music, though! Some of the stuff I've recorded myself may be at least good enough for demos - even if the sound quality isn't the best. Maybe I'll put some stuff up on youtube in the not too distant future. ...and perhaps with an animated wheel spinning in the background or something.. ...lol

Oh, thinking about copyright. I may have 10 to 15 different tunes I've been playing lately that I've not recorded at all and so they only exist in my head. That's odd to think about. Since they are not fixed in a tangible form they are not copyrighted yet and so as far as anyone else is concerned I guess they don't even exist at all.

I better take care of that.

Anyway, thanks again and for wishing me luck. I'll try to check out the bands you mentioned.

Dwayne