Osama's Message to America!

[Dave]

I say let Iran have the bomb. The first time they threaten with it or use it, waste Iran and the Middle East. TIC

[AgingYoung]

I think we should load up a few stealths with some of these....

and immediately deliver them to the iranians. I'm talking fostoria; making glass.

Gene

[Trev]

US National Debt Clock
http://www.toptips.com/debtclock.html

I just love watching those numbers whirling round, it's like watching the empire go down the plug hole :)

[AgingYoung]

Mr. Trev,

I'm not sure what a plug hole is but if the empire is going down the rest of the world is going to follow suit.

Meet you in the plug hole.

Gene

edit: I think the rising America filled the void left by the decline of the British empire but I don't see anything like America to fill a void that we'd leave. Plug hoes for everyone I'd say.

[ovyyus]

I think the World won't stop turning without America. Of course, it would for Americans.

I've met some great Americans and I've seen some great American films - may they ride the wild pony forever.

[AgingYoung]

The world continued to turn during the great depression. No doubt it will turn for a while. But on a practical note America is 40% of the world's economy. For those not too good at math that's damn near ½ of what's happening in the world. To put it into terms you might understand cut your leg off and see how life is.

I think we're heading into a period in world history where people need to be as independent from society as they possibly can get. I've seen video of the gulf region (LA, Miss, etc.) and it's worse than a war zone. There are a number of things that I think are going to cause America to decline and perhaps crash. It maybe get a little worse for us. Gloat if you'd like to yet an economic power like America doesn't go away without consequences to the rest of the world.

Gene

[james kelly]

The really bad part of all of this mess is that even the Chinese depend on us to buy thier goods.
Russia is supplying all of those opposed to the USA. Russia even tols huusain about our plans or rather g.w.'s plans. Iraq did not listen. Anyone who sides up with Isreal is an enemy of the majority. If we do not protect Isreal we are in more danger. The wages of sin is death. May all of our enemies die. jim kelly

[SeaWasp]

If America crashes, then I dare say, that it would be Americans who will feel it the most. To say that the rest of the world would feel the pain?.. Well I am not convinced. It's all about supply & demand. Americans are huge consumers. But they are fast losing their producers. Outsourcing is becoming much more cheaper. Hence jobs will suffer and then demand. Perhaps a recession is looming over the horizon?

Ofcourse, the American economy will not dissapear altogether. But I am sure that there are many other countries who would be more than happy to fill the void. For starters, China is the worlds fastest emerging superpower and market. The European Union also holds some major clout.

Whether it's 40% or whatever.. That number is just a number which can be redistributed anywhere. This number will not change suddenly. It will be a gradual decline and redistribution.

I can see China as the the biggest "economic" threat to most Western nations. The West simply cannot compete with the Chinese. They can produce and market at a cheaper and faster rate than any other Western nation.

The Chinese currency is also way undervalued. It is kept artificially that way.

So I wonder what would happen to Americas debt if their currency will start to lose value? Their foreign debt would spiral out of control even more! Dropping bombs and invading countries will not help the economy either. The US must start to focus on it's problems within it's own backyard. Otherwise, it will end up getting chewed up bit by bit!

Spiros.

[rlortie]

I am old enough to remember the end of WWII. No one would by goods produced in Japan, so they start stamping made in USA on it. USA was the name of a city in Japan.

It is also said that a statement was made that if they could not conquer us by war, then they would buy us out. And that is exactly what is happening. Sony, Toyota, Honda, Universal studios, and the list goes on and on.

In the meantime our Alaska oil fields are being pumped dry and sent to Japan. It is the only thing we have to offer besides recycled cardboard.

I blame a large part of this on the enviromentelists who have made it to costly for a manufactures to produce here in the U.S. After all we can not have smoke coming out of a foundry chimney now can we.

Ralph

[winkle]

if it's smoke you want visit china they got plenty of that swirling around

i guess we could all work for thirty cents a week too

[AgingYoung]

Winkle,

If you'd be willing to work for 30 cents a week I'll give you twice that to mow my yard. It should take you about an hour to do it but I'd be willing to give you two hours a week to finish the job. Let's see here ....60 cents a week by 40 hours is 2.66 cents an hour and two hours is 5.2 cents. I'll go a whole dime. :)

Spiros,
.... dare you say? lol.

So I wonder what would happen to Americas debt if their currency will start to lose value?

Let's consider the matter. For the sake of argument say that a dollar is worth a euro (it isn't but it makes figuring a little easier). Now say that all the holders of us bonds demand payment as the bonds begin to mature and no one wants to buy any more bonds. Where could our government get the currency? They'd print it. There are only so many bonds with specific dollar amounts. So the US treasury begins to print dollars. In short order it takes two dollars to equal one euro.

I'd have to look this up but I think Japan has about 300 billion dollars of US debt. If they demanded payment in the above scenario they eventually have 150 billion dollars worth of purchasing power in Europe as opposed to 300. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot to ask for payment. The same is true for china and around the world.

Who holds US debt? Countries and companies around the world. A demand for payment world wide would devalue the dollar. It would also devalue the repayment to bond holders. I see the American economy as a house of cards that the entire world's economy is resting on. It's sort of like a mutually assured destruction economy. You can believe that if America falls the rest of the world is coming with us.

Gene

edit: That above idea would cause rampant inflation in America (dollar worth 50 cents). America would pass that inflation on to the rest of the world holding our debt (banks, insurance companies, governments, etc.) Those countries and companies would pass that inflation on to their customer base (that's you where ever in the world you are). It wouldn't be pretty.

[ken_behrendt]

Interesting direction this thread is taking!


Well, I do believe that if and when the American economy fails, that the rest of the world will survive, but not as it presently does. Most likely, the industrializing countries of South America, China, and India would pick up the slack.

The current economic problem with America is that we can no longer produce enough to meet all of our needs and must turn to overseas manufacturers for this. That is why we constant operate with huge and ever growing trade deficit that only adds to our national debt. Yes, we supply the rest of the world with a lot of raw materials, but then they process it all into consumer goods and turn around and sell it back to us at a profit...to them, of course! How much longer this can go on is anybody's guess.



Yes, we can always respond with nuclear weapons to a country that directly uses an nuclear weapon on us. But, there might be circumstances where this is not possible.

For example, say, tomorrow the world awoke to find out that an American city had been destroyed along with its inhabitants during the night. Apparently, some terrorist group is responsible, but nobody associated with the attack has been arrested.

How are we supposed to respond to such an event?

To be able to morally justify responding with our own nuclear attack against a foreign country's city, which might kill millions of people, we would have to be able to "prove" to the world that we knew, for a fact, that country was responsible for the destruction of our city. After the "flawed" intelligence we used to justify an invasion of Iraq, who would believe us? All of the existing nuclear powers would claim that they were not responsible. They might suggest that the device that destroyed our city was just a leftover "loose" suitcase nuke that the Soviets had manufactured during the '60's and which had, inadvertently, fallen into the hands of some terrorsist group that is politically or theologically opposed to the USA. They would say that we should concentrate of rounding up the remaining members of the terrorist group that did the evil deed and seeing that they are brought to justice.

Actually, if made, our use of a nuclear response to such an attack would probably be largely a matter of guess work. I can just imagine the uproar of the world if it turned out that our response had been based on more "flawed" intelligence!



I've been listening to Bush's various speeches as he tries to "sell" our continued involvement in Iraq to the American public. Apparently, few are buying it and his polls numbers are some of the lowest of a President.
The arguement is that if we "cut and run" from Iraq prematurely, then the country will fall into the hands of the terrorists / insurgents and then who knows how many innocent Iraqi's might be executed for collaborating with the US. And, of course, Iraq would then become a haven for various terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda.

I heard exactly the same kind of reasoning during the Vietnam War. If then President Johnson had withdrawn our troops after the Tet Offensive of early 1968, then we would only have lost about 20,000 troops. However, because it was left to a future President to decide when to withdraw, the conflict dragged on for about another five years during which an additional 38,000 of our soldiers were killed and a total of about 2 million North Vietnamese combatants / civilians were killed. That's a big price to pay for not wanting to admit one made a mistake in escalating our involvment there in the first place.

Well, live and learn...except, of course, in our present involvement in the Middle East!



ken

[winkle]

Winkle,

If you'd be willing to work for 30 cents a week I'll give you twice that to mow my yard. It should take you about an hour to do it but I'd be willing to give you two hours a week to finish the job. Let's see here ....60 cents a week by 40 hours is 2.66 cents an hour and two hours is 5.2 cents. I'll go a whole dime. :)

that should buy enough gas to get the mower started for about 30 seconds

guess i'll have to turn it with the crank cord after that

that could be a tough mow

i'll need to get started early

[Trev]

I was looking for an article I read some time last year, about the total of all U.S. debts, apparently some $43,400000000000 or $43.4 Trillion
I couldn't find the one I'd read but this must have come out at the same time :

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/world ... 541_101541

[ken_behrendt]

Trev...

That figure of $43 trillion USD for total US debt is probably accurate. US federal debt is "officially" about $9 trillion USD. Then one has to add in all of the state, county, municipal, mortgage, credit card, etc. debt to get the total. Servicing all of that debt is now draining an ever increasing portion of the average family's income. Yes, the USA can look very impressive on the world scene...until one opens the books and sees the ocean of red ink produced by it all.

How will all of that debt be "retired"? Well, if we did start a true program of austerity now and accumulated no new debt, then in might be all paid off in a decade or two. The other way to wipe out this debt is through a massive global financial meltdown. Hopefully, that will never happen because, if it does, it could plunge the world into a new Dark Ages the likes of which it has never known...


ken