Robinhood46 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:43 am
Everything is worth discussing Fletcher.
We get impressions of things, add a few more doubtful reasons to validate them, and after enough time we confuse them with facts.
I was convinced that the weights were on curved arms. Where this conviction comes from, i haven't got a clue. Maybe some other members, would be good enough to share their take.
Maybe it came from the same place i got that stupid idea of an image that looked very much like one of Bessler's wheel, but was purely speculation.
The inspection hole is one of the clues which encouraged me to look into passing the weights from arm to arm, or having weighted arms progress around the wheel. This allowed all moving parts to be at one moment or another accessible from the single hole. That being said, if all weights, fixed or not to a specific section of the wheel, came very close to the central axle, then they would also, all be accessible from a single inspection hole. It would just need to be close to the central axle. It is a shame we don't have any eye witness comments giving an indication as to where it was positioned. Did he take all the weights out in one go? Did he take a couple out, rotate the wheel, if so how much, before taking a few more?
I still think we should give up and concentrate on making a time machine. We will be able to get some answers to all the questions we keep asking ourselves, and we'll be able to check that there isn't a maid hiding in a cupboard turning a secret crankshaft.
It may be that the inspection hole was located at the area where the mechanical reset was activated for all the mechanisms, it would make sense that the wheel would stop if the reset did not happen , and bessler could then reach in with his prodding stick to unjam or force that reset manually.
I speculate the reset would be more likely prone to failure than something else .
But thats just assuming the reset mechanisms stayed near or in one spot.
Last edited by johannesbender on Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
FWEIW,
This is what makes sense to me. The wheels all 4, did run on gravity and, were driven by a Roberval Balance type device, for want of a better way to describe it. This gave them a steady even torque. The shifting of the weights was continuous and smooth. Just by flipping the arm of the balance over, made it easily reversible. Also the wheel was like an over shot water wheel, which can't turn faster than the water is falling, right? The same way with a gravity wheel, it can't turn any faster than what the weight(s) are falling. That's why the smaller wheels turned faster. The rim velocity of all 4 wheels, was probably about the same, (no load). But the RPM would be different, slower for a bigger wheel and faster for a smaller one------------------------------------------Sam
Last edited by Sam Peppiatt on Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
That is a good point JB.
If the wheel doesn't have anything fixed to it, and there is a mechanism inside raising weights from the bottom to "somewhere" on the descending side, then one inspection hole is plenty enough to do all the maintenance required.
I'm not too sure that the hole would stop automatically at the position of the resetting mechanism, because, i would have thought that it could stop at any of the points around the rim that receive the lifted weight, probably every 45°.
it would be interesting to know what exactly the wheel stopping means. Did it get jammed and swing back and forth a few degrees, or did it stop being powered by the moving weights and coast to a stop. If it was the first then the hole could be in the wrong place. If it were the latter, then the wheel could be easily turned to align the hole with the mechanism. Did the wheel come to a sudden halt when jammed?
Well , what i mean is , whatever needed prodding , was something bessler was aware of being likely a problematic mechanical function that had a tendency to fail completing its action sometimes.
The hole can then be located near that problematic area , and the mechamism located near the hole perhaps stayd near the hole , as in it followed along with the hole or just stayd in reach.
It just makes sense that a failed reset would stop a wheel , therefore it may have been the parts or mechanism responsible for reseting located near the hole.
I doubt every type of problem could be magicly fixed by a prod through a hole , unless the prod was to forcefully move something that did not complete its movement.
For example you would not fix something with a prodding stick that dislodged from its attachement or raise a heavy weight or re tention a highly tensioned component , most likely it was something that did not require a lot of force to prod at , like a latch.
Anyones guess is as good as mine , we just dont know for sure , but the hole is food for thought , it might indicate something significant or not.
Last edited by johannesbender on Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For a long tine I've wondered, why didn't Bessler make the wheels stronger, more power full? They have often been criticized for there lack of power. I final realized that he couldn't do that because, he had no way to stop it, at least no good way. What a problem to have, right?
Can you imagine, if the wheel had say 100hp, how would you stop the SOB? You can't cut the ignition, or the fuel, or turn off a steam valve. You can't turn off gravity and, sure as hell can't grab a hold of it, to try and stop it. Anyway if you ever wondered why they had such low power, that's the reason----------------------------------Sam
Last edited by Sam Peppiatt on Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm not too sure that that was the reason. But wouldn't it be nice if our only problem was; how to stop the bloody thing?
I'm more inclined to think that increasing the power considerably, would have had proportions impractical and the sizes he used were a compromise between huge great bloody things that are powerful and reasonably sized that can be easily demonstrated.
Robinhood46,
How would you stop it then? Couldn't he keep the same size and just add more Iron? Seams like he should have been able to duplicate a water wheel. Right, I haven't had that problem either, but surely you can see that It would be--------------------------Sam
It would have been easy to build a proper brake for a more powerful version, which is another head scratcher about this SOB.
The room probably had enough ceiling height for a bigger diameter as well as enough length to add more wheels.
Opportunities lost.
Tarsier79 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:06 am
Gravity will always play a role no matter how fast the wheel is going, provided weights are constantly in an OB position. CFs are cancelled significantly by a bar running through the axis and an opposed weight on the other side, like the outer weights on MT15, but with a shorter throw. Alternatively you could have a central weight with a bar extending out each side, the bar would impact the outside of the wheel, helping to fool onlookers.
Yes, you’re right. I’d like to find that thread on the speed of the wheels compared to acceleration of gravity, and cf’s were in there too, but the search function is a pain.
Aren’t Cf’s zeroed out by Cp’s anyway?
eccentrically1,
A proper brake------------- but exactly what would that be in 1700? Sure, maybe that would work for a fairly small increase. But, I'm thinking like, maybe 20 times more, to kick it up closer to what a water wheel might be. Anyway some thing with a lot more power! Also, preferably you would like to be able to control the speed of an engine. What if your car engine was at full throttle all the time? what kind of brake would it take to stop it? A brake can only do so much before it would catch fire----------------------Sam
Last edited by Sam Peppiatt on Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It’s worth remembering that the wheels had be light enough to translocate, yet powerful enough to impress, and the Kassel one, slow enough to complete the endurance test. So yes they could have turned fast and been more powerful, but then maybe too heavy. The ceiling at Kassel was twelve feet high, when William Kenrick visited in 1765 he saw the remains of the bolts in the ceiling of the machine room, to which the support posts were anchored.
JC
Last edited by John Collins on Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The bigger the wheels got the slower they rotated to increase their torque, so I don’t think a brake catching fire would have been a problem. It might have taken longer than the 12 foot ones.
