Weight question
Moderator: scott
re: Weight question
Marchello you are an admirable designer, compliments. Unfortunately this beautiful system are not what I have in mind. In my idea wheel B fulcrum its only connected to lever.
-
Joel Wright
- Enthusiast
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:43 am
- Location: U.S.A.
- Contact:
Re: re: Weight question
Hi unstable the subject of self starting was discussed ,I believe on this board before,I found that the most probably explaination given ,is that bessler preloaded his wheels with a weight near the top of his wheels.The shifting weight mechinism (assuming a shifting weight mechinism was used)would have to be powerful enough to not only return the preload weight past TDC ,but also produce excess power to a working load.But, hey your guess is as good as mine .Keep on wheeling.unstable wrote:ME Yes, probably this don't work... no drop ..no kinetics energy to the system.... but than I ask to me: how can self start version of Bessler wheel work ? its a joke ?
Work with gravity and gravity will work for you.There are more than two sides to a wheel.
re: Weight question
Hi Joel Wright, ok but I have a doubt about this preload: suppose to free the wheel from its locking rope and to hold it by hand... now you follow through the wheel by hand for one turn (slowly) an then stop it. If there is preload I think it is lost now. If the wheel tend to start itself again maybe an other system is used. Ok I know .... this details are unknow ..eheh.. but very interesting.
Claudio
Claudio
Re: re: Weight question
Thanx, Ah well, at least it looks good, so the colored version will go into my archives :-)unstable wrote:Marchello you are an admirable designer, compliments. Unfortunately this beautiful system is not what I have in mind. In my idea wheel B fulcrum its only connected to lever.
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-
Georg Künstler
- Devotee
- Posts: 1718
- Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:22 pm
- Location: Speyer, Germany
- Contact:
re: Weight question
Hi Claudio,
Bessler made different internal mechanim. I try to explain in short words.
Bessler said the wheel is well balanced. And now add at any point of a wheel a force, what will happen ? The wheel is out of balance.
The way is to break the symmetry in the wheel. Energy left and right must be unequal, constantly. Balls up, and down, left or right cannot be the solution on a stabile wheel axis. The internal mechanism must swing to get different forces, left and right, periodically.
When you have a look to my drawing, the full cylinder sits on two dowels(of 80). The wheel is in balance. Only the spring, brings the system out of balance. The internal cylinder is turning clockwise, also did the outer wheel. The spring lifts the internal cylinder one dowel, and repeats the cycle. The spring applies force always at the same point. You have an overloaded system, which is always out of balance. It is a regauching system.
Sorry that wheeler thinks you were Georg. But that always will happen because no one trust the other one on this board, and they hide after phantasy names.
the future has begun
Georg
Bessler made different internal mechanim. I try to explain in short words.
Bessler said the wheel is well balanced. And now add at any point of a wheel a force, what will happen ? The wheel is out of balance.
The way is to break the symmetry in the wheel. Energy left and right must be unequal, constantly. Balls up, and down, left or right cannot be the solution on a stabile wheel axis. The internal mechanism must swing to get different forces, left and right, periodically.
When you have a look to my drawing, the full cylinder sits on two dowels(of 80). The wheel is in balance. Only the spring, brings the system out of balance. The internal cylinder is turning clockwise, also did the outer wheel. The spring lifts the internal cylinder one dowel, and repeats the cycle. The spring applies force always at the same point. You have an overloaded system, which is always out of balance. It is a regauching system.
Sorry that wheeler thinks you were Georg. But that always will happen because no one trust the other one on this board, and they hide after phantasy names.
the future has begun
Georg
-
ken_behrendt
- Addict
- Posts: 3487
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:45 am
- Location: new jersey, usa
- Contact:
re: Weight question
Marchello...
I found your animation very interesting. Yes, it does look like it should work! I note in the animation that the center of gravity of the weight balls seems to always stay to the lower right side of the larger wheel's axle. I wonder what would happen if a WM2D model was made of your animation?
ken
I found your animation very interesting. Yes, it does look like it should work! I note in the animation that the center of gravity of the weight balls seems to always stay to the lower right side of the larger wheel's axle. I wonder what would happen if a WM2D model was made of your animation?
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: Weight question
Probably* the program will crash because of a memory leak (or usage), because of the many (too many?) objects...
*eeh, I tried, and crashed several times on my PC (like many other promising sims I was making), and this while the demo does not allow me to save the stuff - very frustrating -
---
btw: notice how the ball skips 1 place to the front
There are 2 empty places between each partition of the big wheel, so each ball takes up 3 places, with 5 balls thats 15 places, but the wheel is divided in 16 places. Therefore it also eliminates 1 place to be shifted to the right (hope I explained this clearly).
In this case it's tricky to only count the COG of the balls,
maybe the COG of the small wheel (with a gear-leverage-factor) must be applied as a point on the bigger wheel, which gives the COG of the big wheel.
*eeh, I tried, and crashed several times on my PC (like many other promising sims I was making), and this while the demo does not allow me to save the stuff - very frustrating -
---
btw: notice how the ball skips 1 place to the front
There are 2 empty places between each partition of the big wheel, so each ball takes up 3 places, with 5 balls thats 15 places, but the wheel is divided in 16 places. Therefore it also eliminates 1 place to be shifted to the right (hope I explained this clearly).
In this case it's tricky to only count the COG of the balls,
maybe the COG of the small wheel (with a gear-leverage-factor) must be applied as a point on the bigger wheel, which gives the COG of the big wheel.
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-
ken_behrendt
- Addict
- Posts: 3487
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:45 am
- Location: new jersey, usa
- Contact:
re: Weight question
Marchello...
Well, I decided to go ahead and attempt to make a model of your design on WM2D to see what would happen. It is probably the most elaborate model I have made to date.
The trick was to tweak the collision parameters of its various parts so that the two "paddle" wheels would not interfer with each other's rotation, but the ball weights would still collide with the paddles of both wheels.
That all worked fine, but when I loaded the model up with the ball weights and hit Run, the big wheel would always rotate CCW and a ball weight on the paddles of the small wheel would be lifted and then jam itself up between the small wheel's paddle and the larger wheel's paddle.
I tried a variety of different gear ratios on the gears that connected the two wheels to each other, but decided to use a 2:1 ratio so that the smaller wheel would complete 2 rotations for every 1 rotation of the larger wheel.
It was not a total loss...at least I got some practice and can now use the gear tool that I had not previously used much.
ken
P.S. Note that the best way I found to position the axle of the small wheel was to, literally, hang it by two ropes!
Well, I decided to go ahead and attempt to make a model of your design on WM2D to see what would happen. It is probably the most elaborate model I have made to date.
The trick was to tweak the collision parameters of its various parts so that the two "paddle" wheels would not interfer with each other's rotation, but the ball weights would still collide with the paddles of both wheels.
That all worked fine, but when I loaded the model up with the ball weights and hit Run, the big wheel would always rotate CCW and a ball weight on the paddles of the small wheel would be lifted and then jam itself up between the small wheel's paddle and the larger wheel's paddle.
I tried a variety of different gear ratios on the gears that connected the two wheels to each other, but decided to use a 2:1 ratio so that the smaller wheel would complete 2 rotations for every 1 rotation of the larger wheel.
It was not a total loss...at least I got some practice and can now use the gear tool that I had not previously used much.
ken
P.S. Note that the best way I found to position the axle of the small wheel was to, literally, hang it by two ropes!
- Attachments
-
- Maybe someone else would have better luck with this design then I did...
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: Weight question
Nice!
It inspired me to do the same (did shutdown all other programs in the hope I had enough memory)
I have the same construction as in my animation: 16 and 4 paddles, rotating 3:4 with 5 balls.
---
Hopefully my sim is still busy on my PC at home, I'll post it this evening (GMT+1) (if it didn't crash)
---
My conclusion for now is...
This is more proof (for me) that the concept of multi-speed-wheels is a probable path towards a working PM
It inspired me to do the same (did shutdown all other programs in the hope I had enough memory)
I have the same construction as in my animation: 16 and 4 paddles, rotating 3:4 with 5 balls.
The job is somewhat easier when using the <Ctrl> key to do multiple selection.The trick was to tweak the collision parameters...
That's why the paddles on the small wheel must be big. In my sim there are at a sudden moment 3 balls on the left (bigwheel), 1 on the right (small wheel), and 1 on the floor wnting to be scooped up. I hope I'll get the inertia factor right, so it will past that point..the big wheel would always rotate CCW and a ball weight on the paddles of the small wheel would be lifted
It is indeed a bit tricky there on the bottom, so it did some paddle rotation.... and then jam itself up between the small wheel's paddle and the larger wheel's paddle.
I just place a block, Pin it to the packground, and pin the wheel on that block. Ropes will swing, could mess up the sim by their swing, and needs a lot of calculation.Note that the best way I found to position the axle of the small wheel was to, literally, hang it by two ropes!
---
Hopefully my sim is still busy on my PC at home, I'll post it this evening (GMT+1) (if it didn't crash)
---
My conclusion for now is...
This is more proof (for me) that the concept of multi-speed-wheels is a probable path towards a working PM
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-
ken_behrendt
- Addict
- Posts: 3487
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:45 am
- Location: new jersey, usa
- Contact:
re: Weight question
Marchello...
I even made another attempt to model your design on WM2D after the first attempt above. In my second attempt I tried to make an exact duplicate of your animation with the big wheel having 16 paddles and the small one having 8 paddles and the system using 5 ball weights.
In that second attempt I found that I could accurately hold the axle of the smaller wheel to the right of the larger wheel's axle by using to rods positioned at 45&$176; to the smaller wheels axle.
However, try as I might, I could not get the gears to work right so that the two wheels would rotate clockwise at the same rate.
If I can find the time, maybe I'll take another try at it...
ken
I even made another attempt to model your design on WM2D after the first attempt above. In my second attempt I tried to make an exact duplicate of your animation with the big wheel having 16 paddles and the small one having 8 paddles and the system using 5 ball weights.
In that second attempt I found that I could accurately hold the axle of the smaller wheel to the right of the larger wheel's axle by using to rods positioned at 45&$176; to the smaller wheels axle.
However, try as I might, I could not get the gears to work right so that the two wheels would rotate clockwise at the same rate.
If I can find the time, maybe I'll take another try at it...
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: Weight question
What I did:
Gear: Bigwheel to Side-wheel (ratio 4)
Gear: Side-wheel to Smallwheel (ratio 0.333)
---
hmm, that didn't go well
Gear: Bigwheel to Side-wheel (ratio 4)
Gear: Side-wheel to Smallwheel (ratio 0.333)
---
hmm, that didn't go well
- Attachments
-
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-
ken_behrendt
- Addict
- Posts: 3487
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:45 am
- Location: new jersey, usa
- Contact:
re: Weight question
Marchello...
I made my third attempt to make a working WM2D model of your interesting "double paddle wheel" design. This time I used your posted animation to make as exact a copy of it as possible as shown in the attached Workspace image below.
I then made everything but the paddles (light blue and green) and ball weights (dark gray) transparent so that I could follow where the system c.g. marker was during the simulation.
The large wheel was 6 feet in diameter and the ball weights were 5 lb each.
The individual parts all worked exactly in relationship to each other as what your animation showed. However, when I ran the simulation, all that happened was that the large wheel would rotate CCW and then the lowest ball weight on its left side would jam up between two paddles and stop the motion.
Oddly enough, the system's center of gravity IS on the right side of the large wheel's axle, but the large wheel always rotated CCW!
ken
I made my third attempt to make a working WM2D model of your interesting "double paddle wheel" design. This time I used your posted animation to make as exact a copy of it as possible as shown in the attached Workspace image below.
I then made everything but the paddles (light blue and green) and ball weights (dark gray) transparent so that I could follow where the system c.g. marker was during the simulation.
The large wheel was 6 feet in diameter and the ball weights were 5 lb each.
The individual parts all worked exactly in relationship to each other as what your animation showed. However, when I ran the simulation, all that happened was that the large wheel would rotate CCW and then the lowest ball weight on its left side would jam up between two paddles and stop the motion.
Oddly enough, the system's center of gravity IS on the right side of the large wheel's axle, but the large wheel always rotated CCW!
ken
- Attachments
-
- If I am doing something wrong here, then I can't see it...
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: Weight question
Compliments !
The small extension on those larger paddles can be half their size so you avoid collision at the bottom.
But I think there are too few balls in the right to lift up the balls on the left.
The design has some potential (and not enough kinetics)
The small extension on those larger paddles can be half their size so you avoid collision at the bottom.
But I think there are too few balls in the right to lift up the balls on the left.
The design has some potential (and not enough kinetics)
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
re: Weight question
Hi, I don't believe Bessler wheel work by leverage only. We all know about gravity.. its a conservative force. Bessler must use some other "trick" ...but which ? I think Georg theory(great Georg!) close to the solution. Swinging while rotate and/or mechanical resonance are the most probably thing. How many people here don't believe this ?
re: Weight question
Just to contradict myself... when Bessler say "weights act in pair", may this picture to be what he referring to ? Obviously by some mechanical system.
Claudio
Claudio
- Attachments
-