Basic Pm Idea

[smith66]

@All,
Did a quick test and ended up using 2 - 1 lb. weights. Since even with 2 weights it was still a 9 to 1 force ratio, ie., about 9 lbs. of force being applied, next I'll shorten the short lever and take it up to about 18 to 1.
Somebody once posted in here that water takes 16 times the force as it's mass to pump it and Bessler's clue is a 16 to 1 ratio. Who knows, maybe he figured out some modern principles in hydraulics way back then. and that is what I'm betting on.
After all, hydraulics has a lot of potential. And one thing about using a shorter lever than the section of the pump is it will work in a wheel. Still, Bessler's drawings show the levers about the same diameter as his wheels and that is also quite possible.
Still, I did a weight test once and had 1/2 lb. rotate a wheel with 8 - l lb. weights rather easily.
Much to be learned and fortunately, I have the time >-)

http://youtu.be/gBjTHPElm2I


edited to add; did some tests and am comfortable with how things went. May wait until later to do more, am being cleared to return to work.
In the mean time, may do some work on the basic pm idea of mine.

[smith66]

Do believe I know what I need to. But seeing how credible someone can be for not divulging specific information, I see no need to mention what is probably the best kept "secret" of Bessler's wheel.
And of course in time I will build it. I may do a 4 weighted wheel first. since I have tried something similar before, I may have to wait a while because of some of the things I'll need to buy to build it.
And since I have had my car in the shop and have to buy a new wheel for it, money will be tight.
Plus am returning to work so will be having other things to concern myself with.
Still, if it does work out, I still won't make the "secret" known. It'll be nice to watch other people failing at what I'll have done successfully. ;-)

[Tarsier79]

Somebody once posted in here that water takes 16 times the force as it's mass to pump it and Bessler's clue is a 16 to 1 ratio.

Water doesn't take 16 times the force to pump. It is dependant on its hydrostatic pressure. If you calculate it properly, your build will also show that when it reaches its equilibrium: maximum height your weight/lever combination can lift the water, the waters instantaneous gain in PE will be equal to the weights loss in PE. Which leads to the conclusion: there is no advantage using a liquid compared to weight lifting another weight.

Also, I believe Bessler stated a 4 to 1 ratio, either in mass or height. I agree with the interpretation that this particular clue is a sarcastic comment.

[jim_mich]

I agree with all that Tarsier79 just posted. :)}

[smith66]

Somebody once posted in here that water takes 16 times the force as it's mass to pump it and Bessler's clue is a 16 to 1 ratio.

Water doesn't take 16 times the force to pump. It is dependant on its hydrostatic pressure. If you calculate it properly, your build will also show that when it reaches its equilibrium: maximum height your weight/lever combination can lift the water, the waters instantaneous gain in PE will be equal to the weights loss in PE. Which leads to the conclusion: there is no advantage using a liquid compared to weight lifting another weight.

Also, I believe Bessler stated a 4 to 1 ratio, either in mass or height. I agree with the interpretation that this particular clue is a sarcastic comment.

If you say so :-)

[smith66]

I agree with all that Tarsier79 just posted. :)}

@All,
This is for Jim_Mich because as he says;

>> cloud camper wrote:
You have no physics training and are simply ignorant of sciences requirement to provide evidence to validate nonstandard claims.
I have high school physics and a mechanical aptitude in the 99th percentile, which puts me in the top 1% of the population for understanding mechanical and scientific devices. <<

Jim_Mich, please explain how this pump works. that is if you don't mind.

http://www.simplepump.com/OUR-PUMPS/Hand-Operated.html

And people, please let him answer this himself.

[Tarsier79]

BTW I have no formal physics training either. Only what I have learned in research and experimentation for the wheel.

[Dwylbtzle]

not saying smith's pump don't work as long as the vandals haven't stole the handle
yes--always said the pump MIGHT work
ya just gotta get it to spin a wheel
or ditch the wheel altogether
like me

there is no advantage using a liquid compared to weight lifting another weight

agree that water is just a more squirrely weight
even more crafty than anything else
at always managing to be FINDING its equilibrium
liquid finds its level
(they used to call that water flows downhill--but now we're too advanced i guess)
-just another level of hell for the self damned flibbertiggibit widget flipper maker to crawl down into
oh nobly born: go towards the light

now if the liquid is magic (most probably are to some degree)
and you combine buoyancy and string theory somehow.../
maybe
but we seldom go there
always hypnotized by the shiny moving object flipper
as a great man once said (steve martin)
let's git small! (quantum level--that's OUR level)

(and if you see what i'm saying please don't make a wheel
even if you can
please? for me?--i hate them now)
lol
make an engine and use it to spin a dang wheel if that aesthetic pleases you

even if you CAN do it....
imagine the guy who invented the car engine sees all the models coming out with engines inside each wheel

[jim_mich]

Obviously I cannot see the inside of the pump, so I assume it works like most hand pumps, and like the pitcher pump on the well when I was a child. Lowering the handle lifts the piston inside the cylinder, which causes suction (reduced pressure) in the cylinder, which allows water to be pushed upward though the lower check valve by atmospheric pressure, which is limited to an absolute height of about 32 feet because air pressure is about 14 PSI and each foot of water weighs about 0.433 lb. After water fills the cylinder, the handle is pulled up. The lower check valve closes and water flows through the upper check valve in the piston. Then as the handle is lifted again the water above the piston is lifted up and out the nozzle spout. Since the literature for this pumps states that it pressurizes the water, a rod seal is needed at the upper end of the cylinder.

I assume you are just being a troll and posting something in hopes of getting a response from me. I see no other reason to ask such a stupid question about such a very simple pump.

[smith66]

BTW I have no formal physics training either. Only what I have learned in research and experimentation for the wheel.

tarsier79 & dwizzle,
Couldn't either of waited until Jim:Mich answered the question ? That's basically being rude.
After all, he is in the top 1% mechanically and I asked a mechanical type question, not one having to do with physics.

Okay Jim_Mich, I'll allow you one short sentence, like 4 words. Anything more than that and I'll have to believe that you just don't get it like your two friends didn't just now.

[Dwylbtzle]

water will do all kindza crazy things under pressure
oh--squirt i guess
because it can't be compressed at all
yet it's a bit sticky and likes to pull itself along
and it's always trying to form a skin and a meniscus
and crawl onto things and over
it's magic--like i said
possessing of qualities


maybe here's another hint
hehe
i don't know but i bet the engine was fairly compact in there and he build the giant spinning flibberti flipper just to hypnotize us all
if he'd had aluminum foil back then i bet he'd have coated the bugger with it to make it shiny
lol

i'd laugh if informed of that, some day--but not be surprised

[Dwylbtzle]

dwizzle,
Couldn't either of waited until Jim:Mich answered the question ? That's basically being rude.
.

excuse me?
we gonna dictate to each other when to cut a fart now too?

i wasn't answering his answer for him

i was talkin to someone's myself

possibly a whole different conversation than you two's

cripes i HOPE!@

[jim_mich]

Okay Jim_Mich, I'll allow you one short sentence, like 4 words. Anything more than that and I'll have to believe that you just don't get it like your two friends didn't just now.

Move handle up down.

[Dwylbtzle]

barhar
i forget which president--that rare one never to be seen again who hated to talk much
but he was told by a flitty socialite biscuit, once, that her husband had bet her that she couldn't get him to say three words

"you lose"

[smith66]

Obviously I cannot see the inside of the pump, so I assume it works like most hand pumps, and like the pitcher pump on the well when I was a child. Lowering the handle lifts the piston inside the cylinder, which causes suction (reduced pressure) in the cylinder, which allows water to be pushed upward though the lower check valve by atmospheric pressure, which is limited to an absolute height of about 32 feet because air pressure is about 14 PSI and each foot of water weighs about 0.433 lb. After water fills the cylinder, the handle is pulled up. The lower check valve closes and water flows through the upper check valve in the piston. Then as the handle is lifted again the water above the piston is lifted up and out the nozzle spout. Since the literature for this pumps states that it pressurizes the water, a rod seal is needed at the upper end of the cylinder.

I assume you are just being a troll and posting something in hopes of getting a response from me. I see no other reason to ask such a stupid question about such a very simple pump.

Jim_Mich,
I'm very glad you know how to surf the net.
Next time could you try saying something that isn't a textbook explanation ?
I mean really now, I've worked with 6 stage feed pumps and would never give the answer you just did, ROFLMAO.
And Jim_Mich, since my coccyx is fractured,it hurts me a lot more than it does you.
OOPS!! Almost forgot, the nerve in my tailbone is broken because I am and have a broke ass !!

edited to add; jim,,,mich & dwizzle, how did you two miss the fact that at 100 feet it takes 11 times the force to pump it as it does to syphon it ?