Georg Künstler's Ideas...

[Wheeler]

Looks like this system may not work.
The heavy center disk must move by actions of the spring hitting the large disk . This will cause a force to left.

Then the action must shake the pendulum and let it's vertical arm catch a gear tooth.

Also the fall of this pendulum must move the large and small wheels, release and then swing back for another spring compression on left disk.

Far too many resistance forces to continue.

just my opinion

[Georg Künstler]

only put the spring between dowel wheel and T-pendulum, horizontal, or make your spring longer.

the future has begun

Georg

[Wheeler]

There are two types of spin .

One is in physics, the other is known in physiology.

[Georg Künstler]

Wheeler,

no problem with your words or wording,

only make the spring longer in your drawing, then you have a spin in physic.

the future has begun

Georg

[Wheeler]

Now my son, An Artist will not always draw his idea clearly or directly as he wants to create the image in the mind of the viewer.

This is real communication. One minds image transferred to another and another.
If each mind begins to see the same thing by the natural flow of thought, people can understand each other.

Me talking to me while I think of the Kunstler leading us through a path of thought.

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Wheeler,
your are right when you are saying it is a communication problem. But how can I learn from my teacher ?

I can only learn when I have something to compare with. So things which are absolutley new, you cannot bring to other minds. There is nothing compareable. You had to break down the problem in small pieces that your mind can understand it, and lateron put it together again.

I compared a lot of devices. Devices from Cooler, Schauberger, Tesla and a lot of others. All disbelieved this persons. But all, all of them are using the same princible. Bessler is not the only exception. He only managed to create a mechanical oscillation system.
This must not be necessaryly in a wheel.

It is not the problem to create such systems. The problem is to control such systems. If you create a resonat device with a trouble force, this device is selfdestroying. So the task is, how can we prevent it for selfdestroying.

Look at Grim's device. He always adds the same force to his swinging system. Result : selfdestoying.

The force must be reduced(controled) from turn to turn, until it is stabile running.

Physicans know how dangerous resonante systems are. But they control it by switching it off, instead of using the OU.

Maybe you are able to use a longer spring in your drawing, which interacts between dowel wheel and T-Pendulum. The spring is connected(fastended) to the T-Pendulum, and not to the dowel wheel.

the future has begun

Georg

[ME]

I can only learn when I have something to compare with. So things which are absolutley new, you cannot bring to other minds. There is nothing compareable. You had to break down the problem in small pieces that your mind can understand it, and lateron put it together again.

And that's (also) the problem with Alden.

[bluesgtr44]

There is no doubt about what you say, Georg....A picture can say a thousand words, but...if others just aren't seeing the same picture...it is all for naught!

I try so hard to see yours, I am not down the same line of education and interest that you are...and no where near Mr. Park, whom I would really like to see his minds picture!

Georg, on this "toy" device of yours...looking very much like a "clockwork" device, in the sense that it is basically getting/giving a little "nudge" so to speak from the spring to get over the dowel....very clever. What kind of an uphill angle can this climb?


Steve

[Fletcher]

ok, lets try to pin this down.

The T-bar pendulum (counter balance) is pivoted to the center of the inner disk which in turn is free floating & rests on the dowels (at or near the nadir) of the outer wheel. The T-bar is primarily to keep the spring in optimal horizontal position for its next engagement of the outer wheel.

On the left hand side of the T-bar is located a compression spring. Its purpose is only to engage the outer wheel & give it a CW push or nudge. This happens when the inner massive wheel is restored to the left 'up hill' start position. Think of the spring as a horizontal pogo stick.

Action & Reaction:

Georg says the spring is preloaded (not sure how he does that ?). The spring releases its PE engaging the outer wheel & applying a horizontal force with some vertical component to make it turn CW.

Due to reaction forces & assistance from gravity, due its original 'up hill' start position, the inner wheel moves laterally from left to right running over the dowels as it moves. It keeps on rolling forward while the outer wheel moves beneath it. But rather than both the inner wheel & the outer wheel finding a balance of angular momentum he suggests the inner wheel rolls right of the vertical axis. This according to Georg is achieved by periodically braking of the outer wheel. This bleeds energy from the system.

He theorises that gravity, inertia & braking will cause the inner wheel to roll to the right side of the vertical axis. This will cause OB & the outer wheel will want to rotate CW (keel) to compensate, carrying the inner wheel with it. The entire wheel structure will have momentum & inertia so it goes past the nadir which causes the inner wheel to roll off its dowels due gravity starting the process again.

At the same time the counter balance will attempt to keep the T-bar horizontal so bringing the spring into contact with the outer rim. The spring will compress or flex giving the outer wheel a flick or push CW.

Further Thoughts:

There is contact time required when the spring engages the outer wheel. In a dynamic system the outer wheel is turning away from the spring so it will carry the spring with it, deflecting the counter balance left. The counter balance will resist this & cause a drag on the outer wheel slowing its acceleration additional to the braking affect.

When the spring contact is over the counter balance will swing left to right attempting to bring itself back to a stable horizontal position. In the process of swinging beyond vertical its inertia helps pull the inner wheel forward.

In a way this is similar to the 'Rolling Ball' idea though less sophisticated.

The upshot is that Georg wants to provide activation energy into the system to start it oscillating. It's like a 1 pendulum system. It would quickly come to a rest so he suggests braking the outer wheel to provide a perturbance force to create OB. But the spring then has to accelerate the outer rim again after it has been braked.

Looks balanced to me.

[Wheeler]

Tesla

His understanding of repeated waves
The alternating of minds to the point of understanding.

This must be what you are up against.

And now this with all it's power of understanding in such a simple device!
You must be frustrated.

[Wheeler]

The entire wheel structure will have momentum & inertia so it goes past the nadir which causes the inner wheel to roll off its stops due gravity

What if the Heavy inner disk hit on top dead center every time, and always
rolled off the dowel on it's downhill side?

[Fletcher]

Imo you don't need dowels Wheeler. Think of the Asa Jackson wheel. If the inner wheel had external teeth that meshed with internal teeth of the outer wheel rim. Everytime you climb a hill you get to coast down the other side but energy is still expended getting to the top.

[Wheeler]

I can think of Think of the Asa Jackson wheel, but that is as far as I get.
Do you know how it worked?

I was thinking about Georges design.

If his inner mass wheel alway landed on the top of one of his dowels, then

wouldn't the mass and weight cause some resistance as in a braking action?

[ovyyus]

I don't think Georg understands resonant oscillation at all. I also think Georg is mistaken when he assumes that no one understands his theory.

Energy is not created in a resonant system - rather work input over time is more or less efficiently stored. When a resonant system is made to do work output, it's oscillation amplitude is decreased and more work input is then needed to increase oscillation amplitude again. Work input = work output.

I think Georg's theory is unworkable. Certainly it is unsupported by any demonstrable proof. Continuous claims of success; no presented proof; selectively ignores questions; accusations that we lack his deep understanding - he's having a laugh!

[Fletcher]

Well explained ovyyus !

EDIT: Missed your question Wheeler.

Nobody that I'm aware of understands how Asa Jackson's wheel should have worked. I was simply referring to the rim gear & meshing teeth aspect of it.

What you propose with Georg's wheel re falling of the top of the dowel etc having a braking contribution I guess might be possible. The timing would be critical.

As you said earlier there are so many interactions that are dependent that it can become a bit of a haze. Where's a working model when you need one :)

The essence is as ovyyus said. In a mechanical system any oscillation or resonance must first be created. Georg is pre-loading it to create that oscillation. It then requires further energy input to maintain its synchronization & amplitude otherwise ordinary friction losses etc will deplete it & it will wind down & eventually stop. Drain energy from it rapidly in the form of work done or load & it requires an even larger energy top up to maintain the system.

Georg is suggesting the exact opposite. Bleed energy from the system & the resonance (of itself) will cause the system to work harder to replace that lost energy & maintain its amplitude etc. He says the energy to bolster the resonance will come directly from gravity or perhaps indirectly via inertial properties of his wheel, I guess.

He is after what pendulum enthusiasts are also searching for - the Holly Grail of self amplifying oscillation. The question is ... do you think he has the answer ?