Bessler's use of Gravity

[coylo]

This is exactly the situation that inventors fear the most!

This is why this forum is not the open institution of ideas that we would all like it to be, but that's just the way it is.

P.S.
I have confidence in Ralph that he does not assimilate other peoples designs.

[Magnum]

James and Ralph,

OK, lets look at it another way. Two people have a working wheel at the same time. Somehow both are the same. Lets make a deal. Ralph has my design ask him if it the same according to what you have posted.

Ken Toliver

[james kelly]

RALPH SAYS that there is NO likeness to yours, except that both use weights. What is your problem?

[Magnum]

Ralph and James,

I will send Ralph an email complete with the time line of events that shows what the silularities are. I respect Ralph. I believe him to be a good person with good intentions. In my book confidenuality means don`t talk about it at all. Don`t post it and do not put it up for discusion.

Ken Toliver

[Fletcher]

Ken T .. although I understand your concern I would like you to reflect on the following points.

You ENTRUSTED your design to Ralph. I assume there was some sort of agreement that was signed. If you feel that the TRUST (which you agreed to give unreservedly) has been broken then you have grounds to pursue it legally BUT first you must know the competing design details, which you don't.

Secondly, you have time lines etc which will support your contentions. I think I remember that you said it was only a matter of about 4 days from you giving your design to Ralph to James Kelly calling Ralph saying he had a working wheel. That seems a very short amount of time (one day) to tweak his build with your ideas & then test run it for 3 more days, that's assuming Ralph picked up the phone to Kelly immediately upon reviewing your design (a big leap imo).

Thirdly, you do not have a working wheel, only a hopeful design. James Kelly says he has a working physical wheel. They are worlds apart. James is testing the output of his wheel then applying for a patent IIRC. Ralph is a substantial benefactor of that patenting process where a working wheel must be displayed as proof. I would suggest that it would be in Ralph's interest to sight the working wheel that is to be a major windfall for him, in which case he can verify its exact working condition & tell you categorically that it is or is not the same working principle as your design.

You have stated your concerns publicly but can do nothing until you have Ralph's opinion of James Kelly's wheel actual similarity or a patent to review yourself.

[rlortie]

Ken T.,

As of this posting I have received no Time line, or am I caring as to wether I do!

I told you by private mail that you were being "paranoid", you are forcing me into open discussion of events you wished kept confidential with your accusationss on this public forum.

Your present attempt appears to be aimed at kelly, normally I would let him or any member fend for themselves or at least until I knew which side to defend. But in this case you have included my name in a feigning manner, that calls for my response on my own behalf.

First off as you state, I am dumb in your eyes and do not understand your design. And to that I agree. (Not that I am dumb in my eyes!) So how can I give what I do not understand to James kelly who had his current design under construction before you disclosed what I still have not made sense of.

Why do you keep saying that a mechanical engineer at work says its a winner but yet he does not offer to assist you. This is very contradictive in my books. If you had a proven design I would quit my job to jump on the band wagon.

As for your alleged stealing of some ramp idea you have completely lost all sense of reality. There is no ramps in Kelly's machine and all of your original unfinished drawings you sent me designated upper and lower
"Platforms"
Which by the way all members you invited to your forum had the opportunity to see and varify.

A ramp is considered a stationary inclined plane neither you or Kelly use anything fitting this description.

Now you are talking lawsuit! bring it on buddy! With the assistance of my legal knowledge and Kelly's daughter who is a cooperate Attorney I am sure that we can match you Tort for Tort and bury you in legal financial debt. I do not believe you can supply enough food preservatives and peanuts to outlast us.

First off you can start by showing substantiating proof to your slanderous remark that I gave James kelly your design. As with all members James did not even know that you and I were in communication until you put that knowledge here.

When it comes to legal action I believe at present I have the upper hand, as I have every member of this Board knowing that you publicly accused me of stealing your ideas. If you cannot prove it then you are liable for slanderous demean of reputation and character. A very common and usually fast settled Tort in any state.

In an attempt to be a mister "nice guy" in case your self egotistical paranoid mind doe not understand, I will say it, one more time.

James Kelly has never received any information regarding your design from Ralph Lortie.

What I know of Kelly's design and yours, they are two entirely different methods of mechanical transference. Yours is said or did say that it had ropes, Kelly's machine does not!

If you wish to stay on this forum, get your act together or watch your rep bar start turning red. and if you are not going to explain why you deleted all posts from your private forum other than for subterfuge. Then posted one that does not make any sense. Why don't you close it out.

I for one will never be posting anything and would appreciate it if you would withdraw my name as a member of said forum. I do not like being around dead things they have a tendency to smell. Just as I closed my own blog!

From Ralph to a Poor Paranoid Party!

[rlortie]

Fletcher,

very good points, I thank you!

It is obvious of course that I will not be releasing any public knowledge as to the working manner of Kelly's wheel with out his permission.

At my suggestion and discretion this information has been passed to one select trusted member (by Kelly) to act as third party witness just in case he should find himself in the present condition. Magnum for your sake I hope you are picking up on this fact!

It is a joint venture true. but until it becomes patentable or at least the application stage is acquired, I consider it his! I may say what it is not, but to quiz me into a direct answer could take as long as achieving a patent.

If it is a runner indeed, I will be busy burning the midnight oil building a version which can be set upon the examiners desk. I will not have time to keep up with defending myself on this forum.

So this is it, I feel that I have spoken in my own regards and hope any farther accusations aimed my way will be so judged by the members.

Ralph

[rlortie]

One more thing to Ken T.,

You now seem to be going after Mr. Kelly rather than me very openly on this forum. I am a friend of Mr. Kelly's and to him I am his "little brother".

Having private knowledge of his present health and mental state. Do not think that I am just about to let you attempt to take advantage of my "big brother"! To me he is more than just another forum member personally, but only another member when discussion falls here.

I do not advise you to continue using present tactics in hopes of knowledge from him that I refused to supply!

Ralph

[ken_behrendt]

Well, this is a sticky matter and should certainly illustrate to our members the potential problems that can arise when there is sharing of ideas between members.

Generally, if some member offers to show me his design, I may do so and promise not to reveal it, share it with others, or use it myself. That last part can be somewhat tricky. So far, all of the designs that I have seen are unworkable. But, does that mean I can not use any part of such an unworkable design in the future if I think I can somehow use it to make a workable design? Many of the members who come to this board ARE looking for ideas for future designs and, most likely, do feel free to "borrow" bits and pieces of what they see in the usually unworkable designs presented here for their own use.

I do not see anything wrong with this and, if the designs shown here were literary works, then using parts of them would probably be justified by the legal concept of the "fair use" doctrine. Authors can and do take whole sentences and even paragraphs from other authors' works for the purpose of commentary and do not have to get prior permission from those authors for doing so. Only very rarely does this result in any sort of legal action for infringement of copyright.


Ken T. ...

I think I tend to agree with Fletcher's analysis. That is, it would seem highly unlikely that James Kelly could learn the details of your design, use them to modify his own, and then, finally, produce and test a working wheel of his own in only 4 days! Even Johann Bessler could not manage that kind of speed.

And, I agree that there is a BIG difference between a ramp and a "platform". Mainly, ramps cause vertical motions in weights, while platforms only provide for their horizontal motions.



ken

[rlortie]

Sorry but the more I go back and read the higher the hair on the back of me neck raises!

I contacted Ralph with my design and since then I have seen him describe its functions many times in this thread and in others

You are full of it! Show me examples by post and thread, other than where I confirmed and apologized for posting something from a private forum by mistake.

IMO You are paranoid, you need help!

Ralph

[winkle]

Ralph i am not trying to butt into you're business but

i have thought for a good while the way that you seem to try to work with every one with an idea at the same time could present the possibility of appearance of conflict off interest

if the past is any guide to the feature there seems to be a abundance of one thing in this quest and that's time about three hundred years so far

surly it does not really take you that long to test a design sent to you

why not just accept one design at a time

when you have finished testing inform the member and move on to the next project

no offence intended to either party in this touchy situation.


just a question

sometimes people don't look real close at what you're saying

i got reminded of that the other day

[Fletcher]

That's exactly why Ralph finds himself in this position. He has set about ambitiously to work with as many bona fide people as possible. This type of conflict or paranoia is inevitable & goes with the territory when dealing with multiple parties at once.

If you have ENTRUSTED Ralph with your design then TRUST him, end of story. If a working wheel is ever released that Ralph was/is party to, then you can be as paranoid as you like & even pursue it legally if you think you have sufficient grounds. That possibility also goes with the territory & Ralph would be well aware of that potential downside.

[rlortie]

Fletcher, Winkle,

As usual you are both making good discussion points.

That possibility also goes with the territory & Ralph would be well aware of that potential downside.

You better bet your sweet bippy I do/am! The potential downside is my first concern when forming a relationship with a member that has approached me. So far I have held true to form. A play on words in the legal sense can make a difference as night and day.

Yes I have more than one forum members design. they are just that! designs. most if not all are sent to me for review unsolicited. I do not request. I can dismiss the majority in a matter of minutes.

Sometimes though I get a design that I cannot readily dismiss. This leads to confidential relations with the responsible party. If they prove to me that they do not have the resources and/or aptitude to construct it, then I do a brief background check on them. I demand to know surname, location, experience and occupation. They may not know that I ask all these questions but I find the answers I seek.

A number of members that have contacted me are only interested in learning the basics. I do not build or assist in designing. They have ideas that they think will work. I tell them to pursue their ideas. They cannot develope a perceptive mind if it's clouded with idea's that are questionable to them. One such member that is known to the forum was claudio. All I did was assist him in basic research. His announced design was his, I helped him refine it and was still working on it when he went public. I dropped it like a hot potato. But still ended up in the middle of the flack!

For what I do, I expect a now and then confrontation. I have broad shoulders and can take it. I consider it part of the job. which is to help us gain knowledge leading one step closer and one failed design behind us.

At times I wish me oath of confidentiality did not ride so heavy. I have seen a lot of failed designs that I would like to post. Simply for the discussion of why it does not work. But they are not mine to do so. Only two unnamed members have ever posted a failed design that I was involved with. For them to do so, I hold high respect, I wish more would follow suit!

When I build, it is one at a time putting full effort into it. A member may have to wait some time for his turn in the shop. If it does not work I may move to the next in line. But once built and it fails it is not trashed, I keep them and go back occasionally hoping to make a slight modification or adjustment. I let innovation take its course. After say 3 to 4 months I still have not achieved any success, then it is recycled.

As for signed contracts or disclosure statements, I request nothing nor will I sign anything. If my verbal word or proxy hand shake does not meet with your requirements, then do not send me anything. To me a disclosure statement is a wide open opportunity for the holder to claim rights to my own designs.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Murilo,

IMO you posted this in the wrong thread!

All the members in this forum are, of sure, humans.
Each human beam with its charge of problems and neurosys.
Basicaly, all of us are adversaries and enemies, or competitors, in a very natural and comprehensive way.
As we know, some may have a super-charge of neura...
This means, we have made real enemies in our forum past!
Occasionally, some comes to revenge and bother.
Don't you feel like you all are now *discussing seriously* a cartoon???
This means that you fall in this poor revenge.
Take care... regs. M.

[John Collins]

Like Ralph I have been offered many designs for PM wheels, and many have asked me to sign a NDA, but now, like Ralph, I don't sign anything, but neither do I wish to know about the design, and the reason is this; if I sign an agreement not to disclose anything about the design, I effectively rule myself out of claiming authorship of that design. But what if that design happened to match one I was working on? How can I prove that I already had that design if I have signed an agreement not to publicise it?

I know that the chances of this happening are slim but they could happen and that is why I will not sign an NDA and neither will I look at another design unless it is offered freely for me to do with as I see fit - and surprisingly I get a few of those every year.

On the other hand, if I ask someone to sign an NDA so that I can share with them a design, the NDA may not be sufficient to make them keep it to themselves and not to use it for their benefit. Although Ralph is beyond reproach I think his attitude is rare and the temptation for another person (obviously there are none on this forum) to take advantage should be kept in mind before you start sharing ideas or signing NDAs.

John Collins