A Picture of JEEB's Axle.

[Jonathan]

The axle, which passes through the center of the wheel, is 6 feet long and 8 inches in diameter, and in its movement is supported at each end by an almost one-inch thick steel bearing. The bearings taper somewhat, and the arrangement has been designed in such a way that the rotational movement of the entire vertically suspended wheel can be slightly modified by the application on each side of small weights, as the appended plans at the end of the treatise clearly demonstrate.
Das Triumphirende Perpetuum Mobile Orffyreanum, pg 190, ©John Collins, 2004

I suspect, but at this time have no proof, that Ted's translation of "curves" was a reference to the cranks that turn the pendula.

[rlortie]

Jim_mich,

I try to keep straight what is known fact and what is unknown or is speculation or bad translations. For this reason it is good to know the source of information.

It seems that both the half round bearing concept and the tapered pin concept comes only from Al Bacon and Ted of Chicago.

The last thing I want to do is lead anybody astray. But I see we are still having a communication problem.

I have never nor does any of my research papers including Bacon's imply a half round bearing. There is no mention of such a design in any of Johns work. I agree that such a bearing would have its advantages as per Ken and Bill's input, but I can find "no" description of such.

I believe that you have been misunderstanding my words or are letting others distact you. I do not wish to argue the point, but debate it. and to do so I must make it understood that I have never implied any thing about half round bearings as there is no source describing it. I did state that they would not work if said bushing were to ride in a half circle groove.

The reference to the "half round" is describing two grooves about the axis for which the bushing rests in. Furthermore there is no mention as to whether the bushing was tapered, only the pins.

I hope this clarifys things a little better, I do not want to turn this into a personal vendetta, I would rather drop the whole subject.

Ralph

[rlortie]

The bearings taper somewhat, and the arrangement has been designed in such a way that the rotational movement of the entire vertically suspended wheel can be slightly modified by the application on each side of small weights, as the appended plans at the end of the treatise clearly demonstrate.
Das Triumphirende Perpetuum Mobile Orffyreanum, pg 190, ©John Collins, 2004

A condensed edited quote of Jonathans as posted above. Here it says

1. The bearings taper somewhat. Ok here it is right out of Johns book.

2. The design is in such a way that the rotational movement of the entire vertical suspended wheel can be slightly modified. One such modification would be the fact that any weight added to one side or the other would cause the entire vertically suspended wheel to shift side ways due to the taper and dynamic balance. This shifting would in turn throw the tapered pin into the bushing and if so designed would cause the bushing to turn with the pin and would or could account for the statement "that the rotational movement of the entire vertically suspended wheel can be slightly modified"

3. Bacons description adds "with two curves around the axle provide the rotational motion of the whole vertical suspended wheel through application of pendule. which can be somewhat modified.

I question Jonathans statement about the two curves referring to the crank handles and stand by my belief that the bushings are inserted into said curves that in turn provide the afore mentioned "rotational motion of the entire vertically suspended wheel to be modified"

What are and/ or where does one find

"the appended plans at the end of the treatise clearly demonstrate.

If it is clearly demonstrated is this demonstration to be found?

I hope this helps to clear up some misconceptions.

Ralph

[jim_mich]

Ralph, we seem to be having communication problems. First let me assure you that I understand your posts, and that I agree with most of their content. The communication problem seems to be in the meaning and usage of the word 'bearing'.

You used the word 'bearing' in away that caused your posts to be confusing to me.

to Jim I add that it was not I who came up with the half round bearing. A half round bearing could not ride or turn in a circular groove.

In my next post I was trying to clear up that confusion. My understanding or definition of a 'bearing' is a part that supports or bears the weight of a something. A 'bearing' supports a shaft.

I think Bessler's wheel bearings can be described as "A shaft rests in a bushing. The bushing is the 'bearing'. The bushing rests in a half circle groove in a wood support. The half circle groove is also a 'bearing' as it supports or bears the weight of the bushing." This is the way that I support my test wheel, except I use a modern ball bearing in place of the bushing. This is why I said 'a half-round bearing will work'.

Bacon's 'half circle groove' implies a half-round bearing. It is the source of the 'half round bearing' concept. It seems that some of us (me included) confused things and started thinking that the bushing was half round, rather than just the groove that supports the bushing.

I think the "the appended plans at the end of the treatise" never got appended.

[Fletcher]

I think the appended plans referred to, re the application on each side of small weights, were the familiar wood cuts he was referring to & the external pendulums that were never built or exhibited.

[ken_behrendt]

Jim and Ralph...

There does seem to be some confusion surrounding the terms bearing and bushing. To me, the part that turns is the shaft or pivot which is usually made from a hard alloy such as steel. The bearing or bushing is a stationary part usually made from a softer alloy that surrounds (but not necessarily completely) the shaft or pivot and guides and supports it during its rotation. The bearing or bushing should be easily replaced since, because it is softer than the shaft or pivot, it will wear out more quickly.

Anyway, below is attached what my best guess is about the structural details of the bearing "nest" located in one of the wheel's upright vertical supports. I'm assuming (there I go again) here that Bessler used a half moon shaped brass bearing or bushing piece that he fabricated by cutting up a cylindrical brass clock weight.

ken

P.S. Note the "squared off" end of the pivot for the attachment to a crank. The crank would have a corresponding square hole in it and would be firmly attached to the squared off end of the pivot with a screw. This technique has traditionally been used by clockmakers to attach the hands to the extended pivots of clock wheels.

[rlortie]

Jim I do believe that we are finally on the same track. As you say the "half round circle" is what the bushing is resting on and does not imply that the bushing is half round as per Kens above drawing.

Sorry Ken but I can find no reference to the bushing being halved, as Jim states the term bearing also includes what the bushing is being beared (to hold up,support) by. This conclusion stands up to Johns interpretations as well as Bacons.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Ken,

Revise your drawing to show a full bushing resting in a half circle slot that extends from 3 to 9 o'clock. Said slot should be just wide enough to hold but not seize bushing. slot depth does not go all the way through support but is decreased in size to allow pendule shaft only.

Now imagine if you will, the tapered axis being side shifted into bushing to a point of seizure. This will make the bushing turn with axis, increasing radial velocity and speed forcing bushing to climb the groove. After reaching a designated hight the wheel by gravity will slide out and into the taper on the other side.

You now have a repeatable sequence where as the wheel has become its own pendulum. this could also be described as a dynamical or chaotic force. Then go back and compare this to Besslers words as posted above by Jonathan at the top of this page, also quoted here.

The bearings taper somewhat, and the arrangement has been designed in such a way that the rotational movement of the entire vertically suspended wheel can be slightly modified by the application on each side of small weights,

If you add or remove a small weight, this changes the bearing force on the taper and will force the wheel to shift. both sides of wheel would have to be balanced for axis to self center itself and stay there. When he states "the entire vertical suspended wheel" I think that this is an emphasized clue. Other wise he would have simply said "suspended wheel".

Ralph

[Jonathan]

I suppose I ought to post this (I was expecting to hear from Stewart...):

Sie ruhet in ihrer Bewegung aus zwenen fast 1. Zoll dicten / am Orth etwas zugesvißten stählern Zapffen Waag-recht in denen zwenen Bfanen oder Zapfen-Lagern / mit zwenen Courven verfehen / um an selbigen also verticaliter suspendirten Rades / durch benderseits zu applicirende Pendula etwa modificiren zu konnen / wie bengesügte Figuren zu Ende dieses Traεtats deutlich zeigen.

My feeble attempt at translation:

She [the axle] rests in her movement on two nearly 1 inch thick, to (?) slight (?) steel cones horizontal in those two (bearings?) or cone-housings, with two curves provided, nearby on (entire?) vertically suspended wheel, by (mutual?) application [of?] Pendula possibly modified to (?), like (?) figures to the end of this tract clearly show.

My translation doesn't indicate much either way. So I have a few questions, which are not intended to be insolent: (If the bushings ran in half circle grooves and this was a relevant part of the design...) ...how did he translocate the wheels? ...how did he ever invent the device? ...how would one call the choatic movements simple? ...how would one wonder why no one else had thought of it? ...why were none of the eyewitness more descriptive about the strange nature of the bearing? And finally, why do none of the woodcuts at least show a hint of this groove?

[jim_mich]

I think Ralph and I agree upon the basic configuration of the bearings on Bessler's wheel. But I disagree as to any choatic movement with the bearings. My experience tells me "No! No! No!"

[rlortie]

Jim and group,

I believe that we are finally on the same think track here.

I am not saying that my hypothesis is set in concrete, but rather an alternative and one that the discerned must consider.

I feel that another point in my favor is the drive pulley on the Archimedes screw shown in the Kassel #1 drawing. It is square and this has always intrigued me.

It just hit me this morning that if my wheel oscillation theory were correct then this would account for such a pulley. As it turns it elongates the belt to conform to the rocking drive axis.

Another problem I have is, I am always seeing the pendulum as per shown in the drawings "that is not there". Therefore the need of the external pendule shaft and crank need not be shown as per my description to Ken above. It is hard to discuss and describe things that is depicted but are alleged not to be there.

We have discussed and cussed this pendulum dilemma since God knows when, just as Pete is inquiring here and as I have in the past. If one can except the fact that they do not exist then they must be shown as a clue to a pendulum type force located elsewhere. With that in mind the matters such as the weights on the cross bar Etc. must be ignored. Are they intended to depict or to throw us off track. One heck of a gauge for your discerning aptitude.

Jim, as for the term "chaotic", if the axis is six feet long then its center is at three feet. If the axis changes position just one inch this would place a half stroke of 2 inches on a 6 foot radius wheel. Now take that and double it for the the total stroke for a 12 foot diameter wheel. We have an unbalanced vertical COG of 4 inches. The thinner the wheel thickness the more amplitude is created, leverage wise.

Ralph

[rlortie]

More food for thought.

If the pendulums were not there as depicted then maybe the weights shown on the cross bar are inside the osculating wheel. one on the inside of the face while the other is on the inside of the back 180 degrees apart. This could be represented by the two out of phase pendulums shown in the drawings.

Ralph

[rks1878]

Ralph,
I'm beginning to believe in pendulums too...
Over in the thread about my second sim, Ed suggested that I make some changes in the accuracy settings.
He said change one to 60~100. The sim stops revolving and starts to act as a pendulum at 41. Even at a setting of 120, this sim continues to run with the "pendulum arm" not slowing down and always making it back to where it stopped before.
If just a single weight is pinned to the wheel, then it gradually falls from where it stopped on its swing before, so obviously what I'm doing is causing the "pendulum" to remain swinging somehow...

[rlortie]

ken,

Here is a quote taken from your topic "The Blob" I can not think of a better place for it than right here regarding this debate.

It is because these types of devices can not work that I am now focusing on mechanisms that momentarily laterally or horizontally shift a weight so as to displace a CG on to the descending side of a wheel. However, even in these designs, the entire momentary shifting process must be automatically done by the weights themselves without any contact with other parts in the wheel or with parts external to the wheel. This is not an easy goal to achieve...but, Bessler found a way to do it and so will we!

I would simply delete "with parts external to the wheel"

Need I say more?

Ralph

[ken_behrendt]

Ralph...

My previously attached Paint sketch shows what I would imagine the pivot and its supporting brass bearing or bushing to look like IF Bessler fabricated the bearings from the ends of cylindrical brass clock weights. Actually, there are advantages to making this bushing from a block of brass, but I am trying to imagine what materials Bessler would most probably have had access to and used.

That previously illustrated design requires a crescent shaped bearing "nest" to hold the half-moon shaped brass bushing and I think that if I was making something like that, then I would cut an additional slot into the brass bushing near the 6:00 position and another one below it into the wood of the vertical support column and then insert a "key" piece of metal to prevent any rotation of the brass bushing should there be a lubrication failure between the pivot and bushing that might cause the bushing to begin sticking to the pivot and then rotating in its nest.

There is yet another problem with this design that nobody seems to have noticed.

Because the ends of the pivots that contact the bushing are tapered, then, as the weight of the axle and drum press the pivots down into the bushings, lateral forces will be created that will tend to "bow" the vertical support columns out away from the axle. This is not a good situation and might, possibly, lead to support column failure and collapse!

To remedy this additional problem, I came up with a simple solution that is illustrated in the attachment below. Basically, I would drill a small hole into the end of the pivot that extends out beyond the brass bushing and then slide a washer over the end of the pivot until it was up against the outerside surface of the brass bushing. Next, a cotter pin is placed into the hole in the spindle and its end bent to lock it into position. This could be left attached permanently, but would require greater attention when translocating the wheel from one set of supports to another.

ken