What's going on ??

[jim_mich]

I know to stay focused in what were trying to achieve, we should keep the worlds of religion and science seperate.

Yes!
Absolutely.
No question about it.
For sure.
Right on, man.
I agree whole heartedy.

Just my opinions.

[graham]

Well said Patrick, that was a good post and I agree with almost all your opinions especially what drives we mortals to discover the secret.
However comparing a gravity wheel to a windmill is not something I would do.
A windmill or wind generator needs to have a desirable location and is subject to the whims of mother nature in order to be able to produce power.
A gravity wheel once constructed and hooked to a generator will be able to produce power 24/7 , 365 days of the year indefinitely ,save only for the down time for maintenance and repair.
Mass production would be able to offer to the public a motor generator at reasonable cost , the demand would be huge especially in this environment of ever more expensive and scarce energy.

All the best
Graham

[rlortie]

Coylo,

you stated:

My feeling is that I've pissed off too many God-fearing members around here, I've noticed that my once lofty rep has dropped a notch, which is no big deal, but I have a sneaky suspicion that's it's because of my opinion against religion interfering in this scientific and technological playground, which would be a shame, because that's not what were here for. I'd rather be given a negative rep for building dodgy models or being dishonest than that!

Patrick has put it on the line and has done a swell job of it.

I am a believer in God, and he say's to love thy neighbor. I do not think you have pissed off any true God fearing members. If so then they are not living up to their own desired standards or moral ethics.

Now for the Bible thumpers who get there kicks out of jumping on any comment that does not meet their religious believe. You are a blessing, they look for those who do not live by their standards and jump on the chance to argue with you. So you do not piss them off either, they look forward to the chance to debate you.

I do not believe that your religious stand has any bearing on your rep bar. There simply is not enough members using it to get a true rating for the group as a whole. If any member would rate you on your beliefs then I say they are narrow minded and should reconsider their actions.

Ralph

[coylo]

Thanks for that reassuring reply Ralph.

I will tell you what drives people on this quest; a type of gold fever.... the idea that we may be smarter than the next guy is an intoxicating concept....a veritable breeding ground for jealousy, secrecy, one-upmanship, you name it; and yes, I myself am not immune to these feelings/drives.

Patrick, I reckon if you asked Indiana Jones What the Bessler Wheel would mean to him, he would probably say...............

http://www.wavsite.com/sounds/45899/temple07.wav

[ken_behrendt]

I will tell you what drives people on this quest; a type of gold fever.... the idea that we may be smarter than the next guy is an intoxicating concept....

Maybe we are actually driven by the hope that we will be luckier than the next guy! Sort of like the same thing that motivates one to purchase an lottery ticket.

Being "smart" is certainly an asset, but some of the smartest people on this planet would not spend 5 seconds looking for the secret of perpetual motion. In fact, I think I remember one of my physics teachers telling us that whenever the analysis of a proposed physical process led to the conclusion that it would produce PM, then this was consider a reductio ad absurdum (that's Latin for "It reduces to an absurdity") "proof" that the process was physically impossible. So, it has sort of become "chic" in physics to automatically assume that OU/PM can not exist and that any device that seems to display it is either a hoax or its output is not being properly measured.

We PM seekers have a very steep uphill grade to climb against. Fortunately, we do have a rope dangling down to us that can give us a little help on our journey. We know it's possible to achieve PM because it has been done by Johann Bessler. If I had never heard of him, then I, too, might be one of those who would immediately dismiss any suggestion that it was possible.


ken

[primemignonite]

How lovely!

HIDDEN + EXCLUSIVE = ELITIST!

I notice in the discussion string that those who are all for the latest outrage on right, are it's members and moderators! I saw the membership list, and it is the same bunch of usual suspects - the original founder-gang of heavy weights!

FIRST, we have the big guy in the sky excommunicated from discussions [now we just KNOW that Bessler would have loved this one!], and now what do we see but THIS scourge of cheeky elitism breaking out, so . . . what comes NEXT? Fair question? Unaided, the mind virtually reels at the possibilities.

This a 'democratic forum'? Apparently not. The stench of elitism is unmistakable.

James

[AgingYoung]

primemignonite,



Gene

[AgingYoung]

My feeling is that I've pissed off too many God-fearing members around here, I've noticed that my once lofty rep has dropped a notch, which is no big deal, but I have a sneaky suspicion that's it's because of my opinion against religion interfering in this scientific and technological playground, which would be a shame, because that's not what were here for. I'd rather be given a negative rep for building dodgy models or being dishonest than that!

Reputation is kind of important to some people. I'd prefer to be on the verge of getting booted off this forum and making a wheel that would turn than having a highly retarded reputation. I'm clicking a green for you, coylo.

Now, I recall Patrick being only willing to share his ideas privately with fellow like-minded christian club members???(thats me out of the picture)

As I recall Patrick made his wm2d prototype available to anyone that asked.

Gene

edit: The idea that God and science are separate is absurd. If God is the one that has made all things and science is the study of all things how can the 2 be separated? If you believe there is a God you might consider aspects of His character in an attempt to understand how you can create power using the force of gravity. An understanding of the creator might be a little help in your understanding; a light for your path. If you're a godless communist please disregard this. I have some ideas along those lines yet I'm keeping them to myself.

[Wheeler]

They are saying we are better than all others and if they had any respect, they could of just e-mailed each other, but by posting on forum they are saying We want everyone to know we are it and we decide what is important for the discovery.

FIRST, we have the big guy in the sky excommunicated from discussions [now we just KNOW that Bessler would have loved this one!], and now what do we see but THIS scourge of cheeky elitism breaking out, so . . . what comes NEXT? Fair question? Unaided, the mind virtually reels at the possibilities.

I could not of said it better.
I just lost respect.
They have decided to hide and extract information from the forum when they deem it worthwhile.
Pretending like they are connected they use each other to make themselves feel good.
You can see how the big guy set it up.
From the layout,
You can see how the forum was set up. It has already shown this attitude by the format of using indicators and ranking.
This forum has not been public as it pretends, it has been a toy for those who want a club.

Not even able to handle normal debate the big guy in the ski has decided to hide.
He got a little scared and through out a couple of posts as a pacifier.

[ken_behrendt]

The major "problem" I see with a Private Forum is that the moderator gets to pick who can join it. Since everybody tends to have their own "pet" theories about how OU/PM devices might work, a moderator might, even though he does not consciously want to, unconsciously select a membership of people who tend to agree with his particular point of view. And, the danger I see in this is that it tends to suppress debate about various topics. I think a certain amount of discension is good in a research environment.

I know that I tend to resist changing my mind on a subject once it is "made up" (remember, I'm a Taurean!), but, because of the free exchange of ideas on the open forums, I have changed it several times since being here with regard to various matters connected to gravity wheels.

As far as elitism goes, I do not think I would accuse someone of that who starts a Private Forum. I'm sure that they have their reasons that seem sound to them. But, I would urge anybody starting such a forum to consider opening it up to the whole membership. Those who are really "turned off" by its threads will eventually stop visiting it, while those who are interested will have ready access without having to clear the additional hurdle of asking for membership.

Just my opinion...


ken

[ovyyus]

Just because someone decides to conduct or be part of private research does not necessarily mean that they think they are better than anyone else. Private research sometimes leads to breakthrough, or at least in the 'real world' it does.

I remember some time ago when James (primemignonite) became very upset with another member because he felt his private research (public domain Wesley Gary documents) - which up to that time he had kept "hidden + exclusive" - had been revealed. Is that an example of the elitism he refers to?

Everyone should have the right to conduct private research using whatever means at their disposal. In this instance if it might help solve Bessler's wheel sooner, I'm all for it.

On the matter of separating religion and science... religious fanatics will try to use science (or anything else) as a tool to aggressively dominate the belief's of others - BOOM!. Science and religion should be separated because religious fanaticism (a dangerous form of elitism) can not be entrusted with the wellbeing of all people.

Some here seem to think that an exclusive and hidden illuminati-like <g> group of individuals exists who are trying to control and subvert Bessler related research and information. What utter paranoid rot! Speaking for myself, if I wanted to help prevent others from discovering Bessler's secret then I would certainly not go to all the trouble and expense of creating and maintaining a public website solely for the purpose of disseminating virtually impossible to find information FOR FREE - get a life! Better yet, offer something useful.

[AgingYoung]

At times it is a good idea to collect what are obvious facts and dismiss the speculation. Some facts are:

• The Randi Organization has a million dollar prize for anyone that can prove that gravity isn't a conservative force.
• Some people on this forum are in private communication (ie email, private forums, phone calls, etc) with others. They may or may not be interested in the Randi prize.
• If you're not privy to those private communications you have no sensible reason to state their nature. I'm not saying you don't have the right to speculate yet it's only that; speculation.
• There are people on this forum that have incredible resources and ability that are just listening. You've never heard them make a post.

Considering the facts I'd say it's a pretty smart idea to contribute a little to the forum and get the ideas that you can get from it. Then take your ideas and consider what you think is important from this forum and work with a group to go after the Randi prize. It's not much but a million bucks would be a nice windfall; there'd be some there to share with a couple of folks.

Actually most modern scientific disciplines were founded by Christians.
Fine print:

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), Lord Chancellor of England, is usually considered to be the man primarily responsible for the formulation and establishment of the so-called "scientific method" in science, stressing experimentation and induction from data rather than philosophical deduction in the tradition of Aristotle. Bacon's writings are also credited with leading to the founding of the Royal Society of London.

Sir Francis was a devout believer in the Bible. He wrote, "There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error; first, the volume of the Scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the Creatures, which express His power."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) was one of the greatest early philosophers and mathematicians and is considered the father of the science of hydrostatics and one of the founders of hydrodynamics. In mathematics, he laid the foundation for the modern treatment of conic sections, as well as differential calculus and the mathematical theory of probability. His other scientific and mathematical contributions were legion, including the development of the barometer.

He is equally famous, however, for his religious contributions, his best-known work being his Pensées. He was a deeply spiritual man.

To him is attributed the famous Wager of Pascal, paraphrased as follows: "How can anyone lose who chooses to become a Christian? If, when he dies, there turns out to be no God and his faith was in vain, he has lost nothing - in fact, he has been happier in life than his nonbelieving friends. If, however, there is a God and a heaven and hell, then he has gained heaven and his skeptical friends will have lost everything in hell!"

Johann Kepler (1571-1630) is considered to be the founder of physical astronomy. To some extent, he built upon the foundational studies of Copernicus and Tycho Brahe, as well as utilizing the telescope developed by Galileo, but it was he who discovered the laws of planetary motion and established the discipline of celestial mechanics. He conclusively demonstrated the heliocentricity of the solar system and published the first ephemeris tables for tracking star motions, contributing also to eventual development of the calculus.

Kepler was an earnest Christian and studied for two years in a seminary, leaving only with reluctance to enter the study and teaching of astronomy when the Lord opened that door. He was apparently the first scientist to state that, in his astronomical research, he was merely "thinking God's thoughts after Him," a motto adopted by many believing scientists since his time. His astronomical studies also led him into studies of Biblical chronology, and he believed that the world was created about 7,000 years ago. Kepler wrote in one of his books, "Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."

Gene

ps edit:

further brief list of scientists that were also Christians or probably thought as Kepler that, 'they were merely thinking God's thoughts after Him:

Roger Bacon
Johannes Baptista van Helmont
Robert Boyle
Anton van Leeuwenhoek
Carolus Linnaeus
Leonhard Euler
John Dalton
Michael Faraday
John Frederick William Herschel
Matthew Fontaine Maury
James Prescott Joule
Gregor Mendel
William Thomson, Lord Kelvin
James Clerk Maxwell
George Washington Carver
Arthur Stanley Eddington

[rlortie]

I agree with ovyyus, I do not look upon these private forums as a click group. They have been here all the time only hidden until recently. I have known by Scotts admission that there were seven of them for months.

I applied for application to Stewarts Group shortly after joining this forum.
I was refused as being a new member with no credibility established. I did not get upset as the reasoning was obvious, I was over zealous to even request membership at that time. I have never been accepted and that does not upset me as Stewart's forum is not active anyway.

If you will note the number of posts and time frames in these private forums you will see very little movement. They are for a specific path of research and once it is discussed the forum becomes stagnate. Jim and Bill reminded me of this fact earlier.

My reasoning for wanting to join was in hopes of a subject thread staying on topic which rarely happens here. I must say that this thread is now 3 pages and has kept to subject issues. It is probably the longest thread to hold that recognition.

This forum is made up of armchair philosophers, thinkers, shakers, quakers, movers and doers. This is why I always say, I am interested in viable concept discussion rather than who said what to who. I could care less if Bessler's maid played the roll of a woman with scornful attempt or otherwise. I prefer to stay on subjects pertaining to gravity wheels, Bessler's or other design possibilities.

Ralph

[scott]

Some here seem to think that an exclusive and hidden illuminati-like <g> group of individuals exists who are trying to control and subvert Bessler related research and information. What utter paranoid rot! Speaking for myself, if I wanted to help prevent others from discovering Bessler's secret then I would certainly not go to all the trouble and expense of creating and maintaining a public website solely for the purpose of disseminating virtually impossible to find information FOR FREE

Well said Bill. I had decided to make the forums that are still open for membership applications visible, seemed reasonable. Had no idea it would offend so many people. The conspiracy theories were funny for a while, but now I'm just tired of it.

All private forums are now invisible again. If you want to join one, check the Groups for any that are accepting new members.

Moderators, if you keep getting grief about it, you can always make your group hidden, then it won't even show in the groups list.

-Scott

[AgingYoung]

I couldn't help note this feeble attempt at the pot calling the kettle black. This tripe is rich.

On the matter of separating religion and science... religious fanatics (not to mention irreligious fanatics) will try to use science (or anything else) as a tool to aggressively dominate the belief's of others - BOOM!(take that you religious fanatics!). Science and religion should be separated because religious fanaticism (as dangerous a form of elitism as is irreligious fanaticism) can not be entrusted with the wellbeing of all people.

Gene