Bessler morality in question
Moderator: scott
re: Bessler morality in question
How does questioning Bessler's morality help with a solution? The man was prone to self interest, but that can be said of anyone. Morality obviously doesn't determine a persons value as a problem solver or an inventor and it clearly isn't an inoculation against lying or deception.
re: Bessler morality in question
Because there are two large groups. One following what Bessler left behind and the other by just trying to reinvent the (gravity) wheel. So this is indeed a good discussion for the first group.
re: Bessler morality in question
Bessler was an on edge man trying to keep what is his and not letting credit thieves take what he has worked hard to do. This I can relate to being an armourer and watching people take what I have built and claim that they have built it. This is a very old story and man hasn't gotten much better if not worst.
"Our education can be the limitation to our imagination, and our dreams"
So With out a dream, there is no vision.
Old and future wheel videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/ABthehammer/videos
Alan
So With out a dream, there is no vision.
Old and future wheel videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/ABthehammer/videos
Alan
re: Bessler morality in question
Bill
I think you entered the wrong topic, if you click out of here you will see a search all forums box, If you type something that interest you in the box maybe something will pop up.
Ken
I think you entered the wrong topic, if you click out of here you will see a search all forums box, If you type something that interest you in the box maybe something will pop up.
Ken
All material motion requires a source of energy, a body to store the energy, and the energy of motion.
re: Bessler morality in question
Ken, I'm usually fairly careful about which topic I enter. You stated in your first post that...
My response is directed towards your "whole point". Morality simply doesn't determine if a person will tell the truth or not. That being so, how does the question of Bessler's morality, or your suggested lack thereof, help us determine the value of his clues?Ken wrote:The whole point of this is to believe whether or not his clues have any truth to them or whether the point of them were to serve as confusion or distract from the real truth.
re: Bessler morality in question
Bill
He or she will choose to tell the truth or not no matter what your cense of morality is, Its really a mater of weather you believe he or she is telling the truth. Each individual lives by there own code of ethics that governs what he or she perceives as moral or immoral, and so the answer to the question is really up to the individual, as each individual weighs the actions of others against there own code of ethics it gives a type of worth or value as this factors heavily in determining weather he or she believes or disbelieves. And so yes morality dose play a roll, and yes it can have an impact on the clues.
I hope this helps
Scott you are most welcome
Ken
He or she will choose to tell the truth or not no matter what your cense of morality is, Its really a mater of weather you believe he or she is telling the truth. Each individual lives by there own code of ethics that governs what he or she perceives as moral or immoral, and so the answer to the question is really up to the individual, as each individual weighs the actions of others against there own code of ethics it gives a type of worth or value as this factors heavily in determining weather he or she believes or disbelieves. And so yes morality dose play a roll, and yes it can have an impact on the clues.
I hope this helps
Scott you are most welcome
Ken
All material motion requires a source of energy, a body to store the energy, and the energy of motion.
re: Bessler morality in question
Ken, morals aren't required in order to know the difference between truth and lie. Whether someone tells the truth or not isn't effected by what I believe - they either tell the truth or they tell a lie.
In the case of Bessler, I think we might fairly conclude that he was not above deception (he'd probably call it cunning) in order to secure what he wanted or in order to protect his property. Some might see that as immoral, or not, as the case may be. Morals obviously come with points of view that can vary with the weather, or the justification.
But the question you pose is can we assess the truthfulness of Bessler's clues by judging his documented actions in the world at large. I don't think there are clear parallels in this instance.
Bessler lived in a harsh and competitive class divided environment where cunning was seen as honorable business practice and often the difference between success and failure. I guess not much has changed. However, Bessler would have known that his own written descriptions of his wheels would be subject to close scrutiny once he had secured a sale and his secret was revealed. He would not want the buyer (probably powerful upper class) demanding their money back due to his written accounts being deemed untruthful.
Therefore, while I think Bessler had every reason to be cunning in his work, just as he was cunning in his other endeavors, I think he would never be untruthful in his written descriptions (marketing) for fear of losing both his one-shot financial reward and the secret he had sacrificed so much to achieve.
I also tend to think that Bessler would have seen value in accurate, if cryptic, descriptions of his wheel in the form of supporting proof of priority in the event of his secret being stolen. This might also support the notion of an encoded text description hidden somewhere in his work which he could call upon if required, although I tend to think that possibility is somewhat speculative.
In the case of Bessler, I think we might fairly conclude that he was not above deception (he'd probably call it cunning) in order to secure what he wanted or in order to protect his property. Some might see that as immoral, or not, as the case may be. Morals obviously come with points of view that can vary with the weather, or the justification.
But the question you pose is can we assess the truthfulness of Bessler's clues by judging his documented actions in the world at large. I don't think there are clear parallels in this instance.
Bessler lived in a harsh and competitive class divided environment where cunning was seen as honorable business practice and often the difference between success and failure. I guess not much has changed. However, Bessler would have known that his own written descriptions of his wheels would be subject to close scrutiny once he had secured a sale and his secret was revealed. He would not want the buyer (probably powerful upper class) demanding their money back due to his written accounts being deemed untruthful.
Therefore, while I think Bessler had every reason to be cunning in his work, just as he was cunning in his other endeavors, I think he would never be untruthful in his written descriptions (marketing) for fear of losing both his one-shot financial reward and the secret he had sacrificed so much to achieve.
I also tend to think that Bessler would have seen value in accurate, if cryptic, descriptions of his wheel in the form of supporting proof of priority in the event of his secret being stolen. This might also support the notion of an encoded text description hidden somewhere in his work which he could call upon if required, although I tend to think that possibility is somewhat speculative.
re: Bessler morality in question
Bill
Are you kidding me its as if the “point� reached out and bit you on the nose and you didn’t even know you were bit, so I’ll end it here and let others be the judge.
Ken
Are you kidding me its as if the “point� reached out and bit you on the nose and you didn’t even know you were bit, so I’ll end it here and let others be the judge.
Ken
All material motion requires a source of energy, a body to store the energy, and the energy of motion.
Bessler could have lied as much as he wanted to. He could have told us that the wheel was made of soft cardboard inside! Why could he have deceived as much as he wanted to: BECAUSE HE HAD A WORKING WHEEL (sorry for shouting!). Once he revealed the wheel he could simply say "I lied to send others who wished to discover the secret on the wrong track".
You see if you have a working wheel you can say whatever you like, because ultimately you PROVE that you have it. "Sure I lied, but here it is!" Bessler could say.
The only risk you take is IF someone else stumbles upon the same principle/mechanism.
So I agree that it would have been boastfully wise to leave the design hidden somewhere. Best in something published to prove inventive precedence. But to what advantage?
Now when Karl (later down the track) was shown inside the wheel, his eyewitnessing may have been enough to prove precedence if another same wheel was invented later.
But in my view you want to get the secret code etc (indicating the workings) pubished as soon as possible. So if he was as clever as we think it would be in his first publication.
On the other hand so what! If someone else discovered the mechanism before Bessler revealed the secret, then being the first to invent may have meant nothing. The invention would then be out there and the NEW inventor could still sell it or give it to the world. I don't believe Bessler could in a sense "patent" the fact he was first. Too late Bessler. So a secret code may have been of no worth.
Maybe his only motive was to create confusion, and maybe no secret code etc exists. He may have even hinted to a secret message to keep the curious busy, just as we toil to no avail.
My opinion stands: build a wheel of your your own design. Use some of the eyewitness accounts but ask yourself why did the bi-directional make tapping noises, and the uni-directional only scratching noises? Did Bessler decide that more deception was needed as he became more concerned?
You see if you have a working wheel you can say whatever you like, because ultimately you PROVE that you have it. "Sure I lied, but here it is!" Bessler could say.
The only risk you take is IF someone else stumbles upon the same principle/mechanism.
So I agree that it would have been boastfully wise to leave the design hidden somewhere. Best in something published to prove inventive precedence. But to what advantage?
Now when Karl (later down the track) was shown inside the wheel, his eyewitnessing may have been enough to prove precedence if another same wheel was invented later.
But in my view you want to get the secret code etc (indicating the workings) pubished as soon as possible. So if he was as clever as we think it would be in his first publication.
On the other hand so what! If someone else discovered the mechanism before Bessler revealed the secret, then being the first to invent may have meant nothing. The invention would then be out there and the NEW inventor could still sell it or give it to the world. I don't believe Bessler could in a sense "patent" the fact he was first. Too late Bessler. So a secret code may have been of no worth.
Maybe his only motive was to create confusion, and maybe no secret code etc exists. He may have even hinted to a secret message to keep the curious busy, just as we toil to no avail.
My opinion stands: build a wheel of your your own design. Use some of the eyewitness accounts but ask yourself why did the bi-directional make tapping noises, and the uni-directional only scratching noises? Did Bessler decide that more deception was needed as he became more concerned?
re: Bessler morality in question
The best clues come not from Bessler but from witnesses. And the best witness was his housmaid. She said, if I rmbr correctly, "He was carrying a sort of zig-zag scissor made from wood".
All in all we are starting from scratch but we dont have half the work to do that Bessler has done, we know it exists, He didnt. He must have had epic battles with his faith during those 10 odd years it took him to invent the wheel. Thats what Bessler should be rmbrd for. Thats true Genius.
Anyone who reinvents the Gravity wheel after having studied Bessler will only be half the Genius he was.
All in all we are starting from scratch but we dont have half the work to do that Bessler has done, we know it exists, He didnt. He must have had epic battles with his faith during those 10 odd years it took him to invent the wheel. Thats what Bessler should be rmbrd for. Thats true Genius.
Anyone who reinvents the Gravity wheel after having studied Bessler will only be half the Genius he was.
Attempt only the impossible.
re: Bessler morality in question
Ken, is there a "point" or is there an "issue"? I guess we'll find out soon enough.
DrWhat, Bessler mused that a buyer might not think his wheel was worth the asking price after seeing inside it. He also insisted on a very specific payment method in order to protect himself from the buyer backing out of the deal and snatching back their money after seeing the secret. Why was he so paranoid when he obviously had a working wheel? If he was worried that a buyer might find some way to wriggle out of the payment, then he would surely be concerned about how exposed he might be if his wheel did not accurately match all that he wrote about it. IMO, Bessler wouldn't dare be untruthful in his written descriptions. He might rightly omit vital information, be cryptic about the details, use multiple meanings, etc, etc, but what could he ever gain from lying? Wouldn't lying represent unnecessary risk? He simply didn't have to lie in order to keep his secret safe.
RIPPERTON, can you remember where you read about the housemaid's description of Bessler carrying a wooden scissor?
DrWhat, Bessler mused that a buyer might not think his wheel was worth the asking price after seeing inside it. He also insisted on a very specific payment method in order to protect himself from the buyer backing out of the deal and snatching back their money after seeing the secret. Why was he so paranoid when he obviously had a working wheel? If he was worried that a buyer might find some way to wriggle out of the payment, then he would surely be concerned about how exposed he might be if his wheel did not accurately match all that he wrote about it. IMO, Bessler wouldn't dare be untruthful in his written descriptions. He might rightly omit vital information, be cryptic about the details, use multiple meanings, etc, etc, but what could he ever gain from lying? Wouldn't lying represent unnecessary risk? He simply didn't have to lie in order to keep his secret safe.
RIPPERTON, can you remember where you read about the housemaid's description of Bessler carrying a wooden scissor?
re: Bessler morality in question
You've got me wondering too Rip. Never heard or read of thisRIPPERTON, can you remember where you read about the housemaid's description of Bessler carrying a wooden scissor?
comment from a housemaid.
Graham
