Bessler's idea solved

[Grimer]

Satan's Pawn or Satan Spawn? Whatever - I think we have all wondered at some time if the secret of the prime mover was external - whether in the pedula or the stamper boxes ... there are tonnes of threads dedicated to these ideas.

Count me out, please.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Satanspawn,

the use of pendulums would suggest the use of wound springs to drive the wheel, the wheel would still work without them but not as smooth.

It would be easy for a clock maker to drive the rewind gear with falling levers leverage, or weight falling on a large rewind gears spokes to gain back to the middle leverage to wind the spring.

A spring could replace the hydraulic drive in my multi lever designs.

Regards Trevor

[wheelrite]

Most likely for smoothing and speed regulation, stampers attached (demonstating usefull work being done) give a snatching motion, pendulums cancel this out somewhat, belt or rope 'whips' or strains/breaks and pendulums cancel this out somewhat again, also the irregular forces 'to-ing and fro-ing' may upset or damage the internal working parts that actually provide the drive. I think most people here conclude that.
Jon

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Wheelrite,

could you give me some reference to the use of pendulums use outside of clocks as they could be very useful in understanding besslers wheels.

With thanks Trevor

Edit, I would of thought a flywheel ( or a number of balanced weights fixed to the wheel to act as a fly wheel ) would have worked better at regulating work loads.

[triplock]

Most likely for smoothing and speed regulation, stampers attached (demonstating usefull work being done) give a snatching motion, pendulums cancel this out somewhat, belt or rope 'whips' or strains/breaks and pendulums cancel this out somewhat again, also the irregular forces 'to-ing and fro-ing' may upset or damage the internal working parts that actually provide the drive. I think most people here conclude that.
Jon

Agree whole-heartedly.

Satan's pawn,.

It is almost irrelevent if the wheel pictures are fake as they offer no clues as to the prime mover mechanism. This is wholely inside. That I am certain.

Your approach is not looking 'outide the box', just based on a nievety and misinterpretation . Sorry ;-(


Saying that, it does no harm what's so ever re-trudging the road many of us have trodden previously as you may find something shiny in the gutter. Or, more realistically, you'll experience the sense of gloom until another idea pops into your head.

Chris


Chris

[AB Hammer]

I think satanspawn is like so many before who just likes to argue. you know! like Bessler007 and others.

[satanspawn]

"It is almost irrelevent if the wheel pictures are fake as they offer no clues as to the prime mover mechanism. This is wholely inside. That I am certain."

offer no clues? It's clear what is turning the wheel - what is inside and hidden is his reset mechanism. What i think you guys fail to realize is the time in history he was living in. He didn't have the modern day machinery/technology that we have today. Sorry but I am 100% convinced he did not and could not have built a self running wheel with the technology of the day if we can't even do it today. He was a man of his time - and in his time pendulums were all the rage. Also as I mentioned, the drawings lack depth and so appear misleading. You guys keep trying to build a self running wheel - Bessler was too practical to attempt such non-sense.

[jim_mich]

You guys keep trying to build a self running wheel - Bessler was too practical to attempt such non-sense.

How do you know what Bessler was like? So you are of the opinion that Bessler was a liar when he stated that his wheel was a true perpetual motion machine driven solely by the motion of internal weights? Did Bessler lie when he said that if it was found to not be perpetual motion then the buyer could lop off his head? And how do you explain Bessler's wheel being able to run in either direction depending upon its initial start? And how do you explain the wheel's acceleration from a slight push start up to full speed in about three rotations? Did Karl lie about Bessler's wheel?

There are only two possible explanations. Either Bessler discovered a means of causing perpetual motion. Or Bessler was a fraud and Karl lied.

All of the historical information available concerning Bessler and his wheels point to the fact that Bessler made four or more self-turning wheels and that the last wheel ran for two weeks and then immediately for another almost six weeks. Does that qualify as a perpetual motion machine? Or did Bessler fake it in some way? Skeptics say that Bessler faked it. But they seldom take the time to learn the whole full story, nor do they explain how Bessler faked it. Skeptics are so sure that perpetual motion is impossible that they simply dismiss the Bessler story without taking the time and effort to learn all the fact and details. It is all the numerous historical facts and details about Bessler's wheel that make it near impossible for Bessler to have faked it. But on the other hand perpetual motion is supposed to be impossible according to modern science.

You have three choices. Believe Bessler and Karl when they said that it was true perpetual motion. Believe the skeptics who say perpetual motion is impossible. Or choose to not know for sure which to believe.

I'm relatively sure that Bessler built a real perpetual motion machine. Can you or anyone prove that he did not? Can you show any method whereby a wheel can lift 100 pounds up 20 feet in half a minute, operate in either direction, and then rotate for 8 weeks? Bessler's wheel was not big enough to store enough kinetic windup energy to last one week let alone eight weeks.

[John Collins]

I couldn't have put it better myself, Jim.

JC

[Grimer]

I couldn't have put it better myself, Jim.

JC

Me neither.

[DrWhat]

Look, I agree that Bessler had something amazing.

The only risk I feel exists is that the historic documents were fabricated.

I was never there to see the wheel turn. And many documents are from Bessler's own hand including the list of witnesses.

That is what concerns me. Was s'Gravesande's letter to Newton actually his? and where was it found.

Where are the SIGNATURES from all the witnesses?

How do we really know the guards were there all that time the wheel rotated in a sealed room and where is the concrete evidence?

That's what I'd like to know...

[John Collins]

The document are available for anyone to see Damian.

s'Gravesande's letter to Newton was published and the original lies with all his correspondence at Cambridge library, but I have a copy of his original handwritten letter. s'Gravesande actually mentions his letter in a later paper he published.

Would signatures be better than letters written by witnesses of hugely respected reputations such as professor Christian Wolff and professor Gottfried Liebniz, not to mention s'Gravesande? And even if other witnesses did sign their statements, how would we know the signatures were real?

We know there were guards because Karl says so and it is confirmed by others.

JC

[Grimer]

Look, I agree that Bessler had something amazing.

The only risk I feel exists is that the historic documents were fabricated.

I was never there to see the wheel turn. And many documents are from Bessler's own hand including the list of witnesses.

That is what concerns me. Was s'Gravesande's letter to Newton actually his? and where was it found.

Where are the SIGNATURES from all the witnesses?

How do we really know the guards were there all that time the wheel rotated in a sealed room and where is the concrete evidence?

That's what I'd like to know...

Don't let the oil go out in your lamp, Dr What. The bridegroom's coming.

[path_finder]

could you give me some reference to the use of pendulums use outside of clocks as they could be very useful in understanding besslers wheels.

few excerpts from my data collection of clocks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejfzOCsX0jk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL_tl8xqUDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTxnFPDeb2U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT96gTwaAno
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3hNCinIBdk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJRa7vZqHJo
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/art.htm
http://www.classicclockkits.com/Pages/kit1.htm

[DrWhat]

delete.