Manipulating Momentum

[ovyyus]

Yes Kirk, time is running out for all of us.

[Kirk]

Yes, but I did assume, "losses and complexities aside". If we assume the perfect lever (no mass or loss) then do you think a 1 lb weight dropped 1 ft onto a 4:1 ratio lever will throw a 1/4 lb weight higher than 4 ft?

If it is massless then we are at the wheel arent we?
Actually a bit more complicated than that.
I had prestressed levers etc before I realized the simple solution is the wheel.

[nicbordeaux]

Somebody had better tell Wubbly it's starting all over again. He'll be real pleased and excited for sure.

Otherwise, the question is : all this momentum, how are you using it to get a reset ? Or isn't that on the books yet ?

[nicbordeaux]

Yes Kirk, time is running out for all of us.

You are talking about the forthcoming end of the world, that correct Bill ? You needn't worry, some MIB once explained to me that we go to heaven and the deer lick our feet (I think it was the feet). Knocked on the door at 10 am with the Watchtower kindly offered, and said the deer lick your feet.

[Kirk]

once you have an elevated mass use a ferris wheel or,my preference, a belted elevator whose output is used to lift the large masses up for reuse. A quarter pound object descending 16 feet could use the first foot to attain 8 feet per second making the descent transit of the remaining 15 feet in just under 2 seconds the almost 4 foot pounds are adequate to raise the 1 pound 1 foot in the same 2 seconds thus little would be lost to velocity in accelerating the large mass to 1/2 foot per second. Repeat ad infinitum.
The other 3 footpounds accommodate loss and output.
I think larger pencils better- read the text about the 8 foot wheel and the 64 foot tower. I like the idea of a silo on the farm that produces the power and is out of the weather.

[ovyyus]

You are talking about the forthcoming end of the world, that correct Bill ?

No. The end of the world will come well after the end of my world, and yours I expect. Subjective views often confuse 'the' and 'me' :D

[nicbordeaux]

I think larger pencils better- read the text about the 8 foot wheel and the 64 foot tower. I like the idea of a silo on the farm that produces the power and is out of the weather.

An easy source of 8 foot wheels and bigger is when roadwork entails laying cable, comes on mammoth tubular construction spools. I'd like one, but they look like they wouldn't fit in the car.

Or wood, like this http://ondessonorestpe.free.fr/rmvalcen ... sse19b.jpg

[jim_mich]

No. The end of the world will come well after the end of my world, and yours I expect.

Maybe we can all live forever?

Dr. Michael Fossel has suggested in an interview that telomerase therapies may be used not only to combat cancer but also to actually get around human aging and extend lifespan significantly. He believes human trials of telomerase-based therapies for extending lifespan will occur within the next 10 years. This timeline is significant because it coincides with the retirement of Baby Boomers in the United States and Europe.

Are Telomeres the Key to Aging and Cancer?

Geneticist Richard Cawthon and colleagues at the University of Utah found shorter telomeres are associated with shorter lives. Among people older than 60, those with shorter telomeres were three times more likely to die from heart disease and eight times more likely to die from infectious disease.

While telomere shortening has been linked to the aging process, it is not yet known whether shorter telomeres are just a sign of aging - like gray hair - or actually contribute to aging.

If telomerase makes cancer cells immortal, could it prevent normal cells from aging? Could we extend lifespan by preserving or restoring the length of telomeres with telomerase? If so, does that raise a risk the telomerase also will cause cancer?

Scientists are not yet sure. But they have been able to use telomerase to make human cells keep dividing far beyond their normal limit in laboratory experiments, and the cells do not become cancerous.

If telomerase could be used routinely to "immortalize" human cells, it would be theoretically possible to mass produce any human cell for transplantation, including insulin-producing cells to cure diabetes patients, muscle cells for muscular dystrophy, cartilage cells for people with certain kinds of arthritis, and skin cells for people with severe burns and wounds. Efforts to test new drugs and gene therapies also would be helped by an unlimited supply of normal human cells grown in the laboratory.

[ovyyus]

Yes Jim, but I think we might be a generation too late. I tell my daughter she might be living with herself for quite some time. Of course that supposes we don't annihilate ourselves first.

[DrWhat]

Just don't get hit by a bus. If you do your Telomeres count for nothing!

[greendoor]

Kirk - thanks for posting this idea. I found the stuff about the Pelton Wheel very interesting. I have some basic issues that maybe i've misunderstood:

Condition 2.The barge is moving from the thrower at 20 feet per second. The man on shore throws the ball at 40 feet per second but the observer on board sees it approach at 20 feet per second and bounce back at 20 feet per second. To the observer on shore the ball appears to strike and stop. The full mv of 40 has been imparted to the barge and this is the selected operating point of devices like Pelton Wheels. The bucket turns at half the velocity of the stream for maximum transferred power.

I get the relativity thing - but both observers can't witness what you describe here. If the observer on shore sees the ball "bounce back", the observer on barge cannot see the ball "stop". I'm guessing it actually bounces back - because during that moment of physical contact, the impulse energy is shared equally. The barge has much higher mass than the ball, therefore the ball will accelerate faster than the barge. But let's face it - even if the ball just came to a stop, relative to the shore, then the barge is still moving away - so the end result is the ball would still appear to be bouncing off ...

From what I can tell about the Pelton Wheel - it doesn't work the way you describe it. It seems to me that it works by redirecting linear momentum into angular momentum, and reversing the direction of the momentum vector. That in itself is food for thought ...

Sorry to be the party pooper ... I think you are close, but no cigar.

[pequaide]

I don’t see that you mention the concept of throwing the small mass back up to the top. After you get the momentum transferred to the small mass you must throw it.

[greendoor]

Maybe we don't have to throw the small mass ...

This thread referred me to investigate water wheels - the Pelton wheel is very interesting. This reminded me of stuff I learned a long time ago when I sold pumps ...

With pumps you have Pressure & Flow. This sort of relates to Current & Voltage in electrical systems. With a fixed energy input - these behave like conserved properties. For example, you can have high pressure by restricting flow, or high flow at much lower pressure.

You can design pumps that are very good at producing flow, but not very good at producing pressure (e.g. axial flow pumps). You can design pumps that are very good at producing pressure, but not very good at producing flow.

From Wikipedia: "Undershot wheels gain no advantage from head. They are most suited to shallow streams in flat country."

This stood out to me - because most mechanisms can be reversed. If we can make a water wheel that is not really affected by 'Head' - could we reverse this and use it to elevate mass, with equal indifference to height?

Water wheels show us that there are two basic mechanisms that can be used to turn a wheel: weight (Force, pressure, Head) OR Momentum. They work quite differently. And you can build different types of wheel, depending on whether you want to exploit a Height differential or a Momentum differential.

Maybe we can use both types within our wheel, and exploit them for our purposes.

Seems to me that there are 4 possible combinations:
gain momentum falling, expend momentum rising
gain force falling, expend force rising
gain momentum falling, expend force rising
gain force falling, expend momentum rising

I'm probably not explaining this very well at all - so think about this:

Whatever mass we let fall, it has to be raised - either Higher or Faster - for energy gain.

If the falling mass rides another mass system - the force of gravity is available for the duration of fall. Pequaide - your Atwoods ideas depend on this.

Alternatively - we can let the mass free fall. What we lose in available Force, we gain in available Momentum at the bottom. This is an option that can be explored.

As far as raising the mass again - we have similar options:
1 - we can apply an Impulse and attempt to 'kick' it higher - with no physical connection, or
2 - we can apply Force, and raise it upwards - as with a jack or elevator - with constant physical connection

I think Kirk is on the right track - exploiting two different reference frames. I think the mass has to be ejected from one reference frame and into another.

[greendoor]

once you have an elevated mass use a ferris wheel or,my preference, a belted elevator whose output is used to lift the large masses up for reuse. A quarter pound object descending 16 feet could use the first foot to attain 8 feet per second making the descent transit of the remaining 15 feet in just under 2 seconds the almost 4 foot pounds are adequate to raise the 1 pound 1 foot in the same 2 seconds thus little would be lost to velocity in accelerating the large mass to 1/2 foot per second. Repeat ad infinitum.
The other 3 footpounds accommodate loss and output.
I think larger pencils better- read the text about the 8 foot wheel and the 64 foot tower. I like the idea of a silo on the farm that produces the power and is out of the weather.

Trying to get my head around this. So you are using Force to raise the mass (e.g. elevator)? And you are letting the mass free fall from the top, gaining Momentum?

You then let the mass impact the spinning wheel? I'm not sure it can transfer most of it's momentum to the wheel as you hope for ... there is a big mass difference, and they will share the impulse ...

Seem to me that you haven't quite found the mechanical analog of the Pelton wheel. I don't think just dropping the mass onto the slower wheel is going to do it ...

But I don't know. Like I said - trying to get my head around this ...

[nicbordeaux]

I think that Kirk is definitely onto something, and furthermore that it could well be almost identical to something I happen to be working on. Kirk, we are talking about teeth on a wheel. We also talking about chains, right ?