Morphing Keenie to Bessler

[Grimer]

I have copied the following post from something I wrote on the Grimer forum some time ago. I hope this helps.


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By thinking about the Carnot Cycle (CC) I have come up with a new way of looking at the problem of obtaining energy from gravity.

As I've said before the CC consists of three very different scale of rotation. The atoms (Compreture = 1/temperature, i.e. the reciprocal of temperature), the closed path translation of those atoms (Pressure) and the rotation of the flywheel driven by the piston (volume).

Now if you look a the CC diagram


1
This red shaded area is energy given out to the
piston and flywheel by the expansion of the gas.



This green shaded area is energy put back in compressing the gas by some
of the energy stored in the flywheel.



This cross-hatched turquoise area is the net energy obtained from the Cycle.

It is the net energy difference between the energy output by the expansion of the gas and the net energy input in the compression of the gas.

In short, the energy gained in the cycle is the relatively small difference between the energy put out and the energy put in. It is analogous to the traders difference between his buying price and his selling price. It is the Carnot Cycle's PROFIT.

The rotating flywheel is the energy bank which receives energy and dispenses energy after taking its cut.

This situation is analogous to the action of a child on a swing (a parametric pendulum or oscillator). A small amount of energy is put in each arc that the swing makes. This demands co-ordination on the part of the child. Initially this is difficult for children to master, as is the riding of a bike. But with persistence they eventually get it - and so will we.

Now you can see from the above post that you need both the blue and the red legs to enclose an area. If you only have isothermal legs this is equivalent to a 360° pendulum where Newtonian gravity takes the bob from 12 to 6 and Ersatz gravity (rotational energy, inertia) take the bob back up from 6 to 12. In the absence of all losses you have perpetual motion, perpetual oscillation but no surplus energy.

So you can see that the isothermal bit is easy to understand (the 360° pendulum - it's the adiabatic bit which presents more of a problem.

Essentially, what one is trying to to is to attenuate gravity on one side and increase it on the other, oppose it one side and enhance it on the other - to design a gravitational mill in other words.

[Grimer]

I've now managed to remove a stumbling block which is preventing me from seeing the drop with accompanying jerk of the single weight from 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock, say, and the consequent movement of the remaining three weights as the adiabatic legs of an elementary mechanism.

Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll try to explain what I've seen.

Superficially we have one weight involved on the right side and 3 on the left a very asymmetric situation. But this is the wrong way of looking at things. It's using the wrong datum. One should view the right side as 2 - 1 and the left as 2 + 1, the datum being two weights, the state in which the transition starts and finishes.

The same viewpoint can be applied to the Carnot Cycle. Half the energy can be seen as coming from the drop in temperature to the GM temperature and half as the rise in temperature to the GM temperature. In other words half the energy comes from allowing heat into the system and half from allowing heat out of the system.

On my bedroom shelf I have a Stirling engine which serves as a constant reminder that energy can be obtained not only from hot coffee but also from ice. One can make money if one knows the market will rise but also (by shorting) if one knows it will fall.

[jim_mich]

One can make money if one knows the market will rise but also (by shorting) if one knows it will fall.

Now you're talking my language!!! :))

[Fletcher]

If I'd just started reading this thread Grimer I might think you were a convert to the Thermal Engine Theory of Bessler's wheel ;7)

I have to remind myself that you are using a real, practical & known energy source as an example analogy only to that of a theorized gravitational wind.

[Richard]

I see in nature...many instances of embalance..that create motion in a mass or Masses...Fluid(s) and gases..and also thermal..

...can the processes which you describe. (not seen naturally) in our closed system grid...(firma terra) occur?

..it seems that (at matter particle level) we would have to transform (mass) actually make mass disappear and then re-appear..to sustain a motion.

a polarization at the atomic level..(I think) will require a "Graviton" where as currently we have only Gravity.

Grimer..thank you and I shall continue to learn...

richard

[Grimer]

If I'd just started reading this thread Grimer I might think you were a convert to the Thermal Engine Theory of Bessler's wheel ;7)

I have to remind myself that you are using a real, practical & known energy source as an example analogy only to that of a theorized gravitational wind.

That's absolutely correct.

If I understood exactly how to make money in the markets then perhaps I could use that analogy instead on the basis that money is equivalent to energy.

[Grimer]

..it seems that (at matter particle level) we would have to transform (mass) actually make mass disappear and then re-appear..to sustain a motion.
...

richard

That is in effect precisely what one is doing.

For a free falling weight gravity has disappeared and vice versa.

It's all a question of how one looks at things - half empty or half full.

If you stand on your head you wonder why things don't fall towards the ceiling and no longer take for granted that things fall towards the floor, fall down and not up.

Didn't Bessler say something similar - you have to turn things around - or something like that?

[Richard]

If nothing else...I do provide comic relief here.:-)

so then...shielding..may be a consideration?

Its hard to play with the big boys...but it is the only way I "enjoy" learning

richard

[Grimer]

The above diagram illustrates diagrammatically the nested volume changes that take place along the low pressure/high volume adiabatic leg of the Carnot Cycle.

The increase in the cylinder volume and the increase in the pressure "volume" are immediately obvious from inspecting the pressure volume diagram.

What is less obvious is the contraction of the atomic volume. This contraction is of course implicit in the temperature drop of the gas. Reducing the temperature reduces the volume of the atoms, increases their ectropy. This reduction can be seen clearly in nearly all liquids and solids with a few exceptions where one has mixtures or phase changes, the most famous example being the transition between water at 4°C and ice.

One can think of the increasing pressure volume as exerting an outward force on the cylinder volume and an inward force on the atoms.

After I'd drawn this diagram I realised it has the same functional relationships as one gets in the plutonium (big boy) and hydrogen bombs. I seem to recall it's an explosive which applies the crushing compression to a hollow sub-critical sphere in big boy and and a fission bomb which applies the compression to the deuterium of a hydrogen bomb.

(and if I should disappear from the forum you'll know that the MIB have come for me. )

[Richard]

...so then we could be considering materials (solid)s with different atomic structure..?

where in the carnot process ( pressure / volume) would indicate density change...?

..in a gravity wheel the density change would come through less (tightly packed) atomic structure..?

..and then there is control (directional) to angular momentum..?

richard

[Grimer]

Nope. It's an analogy with the Carnot Cycle. But to develop the analogy one has to intimately understand the mechanism of the analogy being used. My previous post is intended to develop that understanding - for me as much as for anyone else - because it is only by writing things down explicitly that one furthers one's understanding.

[Richard]

Grimer...bear with me yet..please

I do not see the ability for "contraction" of the atomic volume...

this is solid with a highly organized and very slow to change atomic state.

..apart from any phase change...thermal...gas...exotic (supersolid) I can not find a useable p /v gradient...

...what am I missing?? thanx for your patience.

richard

edit to add the following..

..now I'm thinking..we should be thinking of "shielding" or give further consideration to what alden park has been been working with...?

[Grimer]

Well, as Professor Joad might have said, it all depends what you mean by atomic volume.

I mean the space occupied by the vibrating atom. So if we have a piece of metal and it contracts as the temperature decreases then the space occupied by the vibrating atom also decreases. The number of atoms doesn't decrease does it. Temperature is a measure of the space occupied by the vibrating atom.

In a gas for example the space occupied by a molecule is the volume of the gas divided by the number of translating molecules. We have hierarchy of spaces depending upon the different scales of dynamic occupation.

[Richard]

...isn't it a true statement to say; We are considering thermal elasticity..

..a bimetal element..such as in a heat anticipator circuit...will actually cause a curvature of the metal..

...in this case however..because we can not employ "compressibility" we use contraction and the adiabatic / isothermal process to simulate the stored energy of a spring..?

richard

[Grimer]

It is true to say that a glass is half empty. It is equally true to say that it it half full.

You look at things one way. I look at them another.