Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

[cloud camper]

Any 1st year physics student would tell you your concept is flawed.

Any rotating system once in rotation is "closed".
This means no mechanical changes within the system can possibly effect the total energy of the system.

Yes CF is generated and it is not linear with rpm.
But any attempt to use generated CF will slow the system.

There are no examples in nature of CF causing increasing energy.

There have never been any observed exceptions within a single inertial system.

This has been mathematically proven to everyone's
satisfaction except yourself apparently.

[ovyyus]

Jim's ideas are obviously unworkable.

That is your personal opinion based on circumstantial evidence. More concerning is you have not seen Jim's design so you can not be certain that your opinion is right. That means you're just guessing. Personal issues?

On the other hand Murilo's design is fully available for analysis and a conclusion can therefore be accurately drawn about its viability.

[cloud camper]

Sorry, the 1st law is not based on circumstantial evidence. It has been rigorously proven over and over
both mathematically and with physical experiment and proves that CF is an integral and inseparable part of a rotating system.

CF can never be used to extract energy. This is not my opinion. This is a fact, repeatably proven with no exceptions. That is why it is a law, not just a helpful suggestion.

Any attempt to extract energy from CF is unworkable.
Proven Fact.

[rlortie]

cloud camper,

I presume that I will have no problem by stating; Centrifugal force (once considered fictitious or a false force) is created by inertia pulling at a tangent on a mass in circular orbit. It (inertia) wishes to force the mass to follow a straight trajectory.

If the mass is retained within a rim (centripetal force) then where and in what direction is the centrifugal force diverted or directed?

I do not always agree to agree with Jim's input, but I do welcome it. We have had our share of debates over the years, and I for one look forward to some more. I gain a lot of innovation during such conversations and have always believed that was what this forum is for.

Ralph

[ovyyus]

Well then cloud camper, circumstantial evidence should be able to totally rule out all forms of PM? That means no inertia, no gravity, no other way to ever arrive at a solution to any sort of PM because the laws of physics prove that it is impossible. Simple.

Problem solved, now we can all go home :D

[rlortie]

"Any attempt to extract energy from CF is unworkable. Proven Fact."

Explain that in terms that a baseball pitcher can understand. As he swings his arm forward and releases a fast ball at 105 miles per hour.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoor ... human-body

Does not Cf play a role in this ability?

Ralph

[cloud camper]

Hi Ralph - of course CP is the only real force operating in a rotating system. CP is of course represented by internal stresses causing the tendency for contained molecular structures to separate at the molecular level and macroscopic structures such as weights to fly apart.

CF only represents the tendency of the spinning mass to go tangent to the rim.

CF always equals -CP or else the system will explode.

JB had it right in that the only productive changes that may be made to a rotating system is by bringing individual elements (weights) to a stop first (MT 138).

This shows that JB already understood the 1st law hundreds of years before it was formally stated.
Bringing individual weights to a stop eliminates CF for that weight then requiring very little work to then translate laterally.

This impact process is the only possible exception to the 1st law as each weight is really it's own inertial system in a physics sense.

I'm not trying to tout my own theories on the wheel here but I believe the only way JB's wheel could operate is the combined interaction of multiple inertial systems.

This combined interaction of multiple inertial systems is not defined by the first law. The everyday observable example is the child's swing set.

[jim_mich]

Any 1st year physics student would tell you all gravity wheels are flawed.

There are no examples in nature of CF causing increasing energy.

Have you never seen a tornado or hurricane?

no mechanical changes within the system can possibly effect the total energy of the system.

I've tried to explain it on a number of occasions. I agree with you that the CF does not cause any increase of total energy of the system. It works like a Maxwell's Demon whereby the usable energy of the system is increased. The total energy of the system remains unchanged as the weights change speeds. The spinning ice-skater is an example of weights changing speeds while total energy remains unchanged.

The difference of velocities of two weight provides a harnessable force that is used to cause forceful wheel rotation.

The usable energy rotates the wheel. The CF simply cause weight movement. Don't give me crap about CF pinning weights to the rim. That crap I've definitely proven to be false.

Since cloud camper has determined that all PM is impossible, I can crawl back under my rock now.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Terrorizing??? That's not true or fair. Jim has given time and effort over the years analysing Murilo's idea and has done his best to help Murilo understand why his design is unworkable. Murilo responds angrily to any criticism of his idea (unless it comes from his bro Trevor). It's not Jim's fault that he's right.

Yes, this is exactly how JB used falling and rising weights to power his wheel.

Pathetic is relative.

Hi Ovyyus,

I do not make Murilo out as idiot troll like Jim does, so maybe it is my helpful manner that stops him being angry with me, Murilo says the Avalanche drive design that has never been tried before will work so I will wait and see, if it does not then I have gave him a backup plan based on sound known mechanics, Murilo is building his device no matter what people say, so why be rude to him criticising him at every turn, I do not see any different between Murilo promoting his Avalanche drive, and Jim promoting his centrifugal force Idea, I can understand why Jim thinks it could work and I can understand why Murilo believes in his design, people naturally want their ideas to be at the forefront! so lets all try to be a little more patient! We have all pushed our designs and thinking on other peoples, its like you and me you think that I am unwilling to learn physics and have no understanding of it, where I think I do understand physics but there are contradiction that need correcting before I can believe some aspects of physics, I am happy with most of known physic but not all, I completely understand your thinking and why, but I cannot except contradiction.

I think that the main problem here is we are all under budget, and things that should only take months to build end up taking years, thus frustrations runs high with no clear answers coming quickly, so the same arguments take years to be concluded.

With respect Trevor

[rlortie]

Not just yet Jim! Stick around, I for one am just getting warmed up. I am not defending Cf as a usable force, but a creative one. One step at a time,

Ralph

[cloud camper]

"Have you never seen a tornado or hurricane?"

You can't be serious. Tornadoes and hurricanes are caused by pressure differences in colliding air masses. As pressures attempt to equalize, the Coriolis force causes the air to swirl in a tighter and tighter formation. Energy is continually externally supplied until pressure differences equalize.

CF is continually created until the tornado dissipates but the energy to create rotation is being supplied externally, NOT INTERNALLY BY CF. C'mon Jim, you're scaring me!

"cloud camper wrote:
no mechanical changes within the system can possibly effect the total energy of the system.

I've tried to explain it on a number of occasions. I agree with you that the CF does not cause any increase of total energy of the system. It works like a Maxwell's Demon whereby the usable energy of the system is increased. The total energy of the system remains unchanged as the weights change speeds. The spinning ice-skater is an example of weights changing speeds while total energy remains unchanged.

The difference of velocities of two weight provides a harnessable force that is used to cause forceful wheel rotation."

Yes, it is possible to extract energy ONE TIME quickly or slowly in this manner. But there is only a single fixed quantity of energy available that is NOT replenished by a change in operating radius. Flawed concept by the 1st law.

Also you just said that CF does not cause an increase in total energy of the system. This means you agree there is only a one time fixed quantity of energy in a rotating system without being supplied by external power. You have just restated the first law but are trying to argue if you take the energy out quickly that somehow the energy will be replenished. That's impossible by the 1st law, sorry. Fixed means fixed.

"Since cloud camper has determined that all PM is impossible, I can crawl back under my rock now."

Not true, I am actively pursuing my PM concept and believe all JB's clues were 100 % truthful as long as
translations are close to correct.

If you want to apologize for all your rants and tirades by crawling under your rock that's your business!

[Furcurequs]

Hey Jim,

Your defense of the conservative nature of gravity might win you some points with mainstream scientists and skeptics, but this talk of gaining usable kinetic energy through ectropy with your device would certainly lose you those points and more.

If someone could conjure up a working Maxwell's Demon, there would be no confusion, of course, as to where the energy came from. Thermal kinetic energy (at a microscopic level) would be harnessed to do (even macroscopic) work - and of that energy that is put to work, any that is not either somehow stored or radiated away from the system would eventually then return to heat and could be recycled.

What would be the source of your usable energy when most mechanical energy we put to use ultimately just generates heat? Your device would have to work on a microscopic level, too, to recycle that energy - like the hypothetical Maxwell's demon itself.

Dwayne

[cloud camper]

"Any attempt to extract energy from CF is unworkable. Proven Fact."

Explain that in terms that a baseball pitcher can understand. As he swings his arm forward and releases a fast ball at 105 miles per hour.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoor ... human-body

Does not Cf play a role in this ability?

Ralph

Yes Ralph, of course - but external (biological) energy is being supplied to the system. As the pitcher begins to rotate the torso and then extend his arm, he is converting all angular momentum into the arm. The arm accelerates and the body rotation ceases.

There's really not that much CF involved. The pitcher still has to create the momentum that will give straight line release speed. CF always operates at 90 degrees to the intended release direction so is no help other than to stretch the throwing arm perhaps.

This is another reason why CF can never be used to power anything as it always operates at 90 degrees to the desired direction of application.

CF always directly opposes CP. This means that CF - CP in any rotating system = 0. Therefore no useable force before the ball is released.

JM is always claiming that CF is nonlinear as rpm's increase, so therefore must be nonconservative. Jim has conveniently forgotten that CP is also nonlinear and builds just as fast as CF so the difference between CF and CP is always zero in any rotating system, leaving no residual force to power anything.

After the ball is released, both CF and CP for the ball immediately drop to zero, so still no gain.

So the pitcher must transfer all the angular momentum of the rotating torso to the small ball. This is a fixed quantity of energy each time.

We are extracting a fixed quantity of available energy very quickly.
Other pitchers with a higher quantity of available energy can deliver more
energy more quickly - until they tear their shoulder.

Nothing magic going on here.

Well, at my age I couldn't do it so maybe it is magic!

[The Turninator]

"Any attempt to extract energy from CF is unworkable. Proven Fact."

Explain that in terms that a baseball pitcher can understand. As he swings his arm forward and releases a fast ball at 105 miles per hour.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoor ... human-body

Does not Cf play a role in this ability?

Ralph

The legendary pitcher Satchel Paige is described as have used unusual mechanics in which he did not articulate his arm at the elbow in the normal style but rather held his arm somewhat stiff and used it like a sling or a hai-lai "mitt". When I had the good luck to catch a tv baseball presentation of a Big Unit game I noticed he kept his arm stiff and used his arm like a sling also.

Tennis players keep their racquet arm stiff also, though for a different reason mainly. Years ago I played both racquetball and tennis every chance I got. In racquetball I learned that I had enough power and best control bending my elbow. So I played tennis the same way. Then one morning my arm hurt so badly that I could not tolerate the pain of lifting my razor off the bathroom sink to shave. Tennis players hold their racquet arm stiff to avoid tendonitis, I noticed that it also gave me increased power.

Olympic discus tossers keep a stiff arm and use centrifugal force to propel the disk.

Many years ago today I flew model airplanes. I discovered that a controlline model could be flown by slinging it around by centrifugal force with a dead motor. This was a model weighing several pounds on the end of 60 foot lines. And in contests flyers are notorious for "whipping" to add some MPH in categories in which a little extra speed id an advantage.

[The Turninator]

There are reports that certain Tesla devices which obtained electrical power "out of nowhere" became cold when in operation. And reports from latter day Tesla replicators that the devices get cold as they produce electricity, apparently drawing energy out of their external environment.