One more: Much Ado About Nothing!

[Fletcher]

I'll try an upload the avi file again - this one where the pivots are anchored on the background structure.

Hopefully you folks can download and view it.

N.B. for some reason when exporting the avi file the recording doesn't show the graph trace for rpm over time as it happens - dunno why !

[Furcurequs]

Fletcher,

Your .avi files are playing fine for me in my web browser. I'm using SeaMonkey in Linux and, I believe, mplayer is the default media player used for such files .

Maybe when you upload your videos, you could also copy and paste the direct links to them into the text pane. That way if they don't play for you or others due to a browser problem, they could still be easily downloaded and perhaps played in a separate media player.

Dwayne

That's interesting Dwayne. I can view my own avi files on my VLC media Player BUT when I load them as attachments to a post in this thread they are just not there to be clicked on and downloaded (hence I can't see them).

BUT apparently they are there (visible) for you to download and view.

Must be my firefox browser but I've never had a problem before so bit of a mystery.

Yes, I thought I might have to copy it into some text etc and might try that later if others can't view the avi file to download, and if there is enough interest.

At this point its more important for us all to distill the essence of Raj's idea down to bare basics and simplicity before spending too much time on it.


ETA: Brains still a bit foggy from yesterday. Could you try an upload to a post here my original avi file you've downloaded ? I want to see if it visible for me as a file if someone else posts it up.

Also the imbedded text thing would be useful. Ta.

Hey Fletcher,

Here are the direct download links to the video files that you uploaded. I had to go to my "View/Page Info/Media" tab to find them.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/files/raj1_405.avi

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/files ... d2_122.avi

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/files/raj2.avi

In my browser your video files are embedded and displayed in the same sort of media box as your gif files are. It doesn't display direct download links for them, however.

When you first attach your files, though, there should be blue hyperlinks with the file names from which you can copy the urls. You can then paste those into the main text window before submitting your post so that everyone can see the direct download links.

I think you might also be able to access those hyperlinks when editing a post, though I'm not sure.

Someone else was recently having a problem with videos not playing, if I remember correctly. I guess the page source generated by our forum software doesn't play nice with everyone's browsers.

I hope this helps a bit.

Dwayne

[helloha]

Instead of attaching the avi file here, use youtube.
Upload the avi file to youtube, then copy & paste the link.

[ME]

I'll try an upload the avi file again - this one where the pivots are anchored on the background structure.

Hopefully you folks can download and view it.

N.B. for some reason when exporting the avi file the recording doesn't show the graph trace for rpm over time as it happens - dunno why !

This is a partial gif-animation.

[raj]

Thank you Fletcher!
Thank you Marchello!

I am very happy with this video.

What I like most is that the concept drawing video shows that the wheel can cycle!!!

Raj

[raj]

We have seen in Fletcher's sim, simulation, of my auto wheel concept drawing, that the two different motions involved, i.e the rotational motion of the FLYWHEEL and the swinging motion of the two outside pendulums, are well synchronised to allow them to move in tandem cycling without any hitch.

For me this is very encouraging.

Now, we know that everything boils down to their overall combined momentum for any successful continued rotation of the flywheel.

There are two distinct momentums in play in this concept. First we have the angular momentum on the flywheel, which can be increased or decreased depending on heaviness and position/concentration of its mass.

Secondly, we have the pair of pendulums, whose momentum can also be increased or decreased, depending of periods/degrees of swings and length of pendulums etc etc.

Angular momentum are known as conservative, except when outside force is applied and near-linear swinging momentum of pendulums can be non-conservative.

Since the overall combined motions of the Flywheel and the pendulums are smooth, their different momentums united need to be investigated further.

Could there be a special combination of mass, speed and size of both the flywheel and the pendulums that can make the combined smooth motion continuous?

N.B: the Flywheel momentum is subject to outside force by the connected pendulums and gravity.

Raj

[Fletcher]

1. Could you kindly do a similar sim of my auto wheel, like the one that you have posted and this time, please make the wheel mass as big FLYWHEEL with its mass concentrated on the rim, so that, once started the flywheel will run for a long time.

2. please make the mass of the swinging pendulums BOBS heavier, in ratio with the mass of the flywheel, so that their motions will provide changing moment of inertia.

3. Let me have a copy of your simulation.

Hi Raj .. happy to oblige.

Say .. why don't you design your own sim in drawings form and I'll build it in WM and post it up for you ?

There are always INPUTS when building a sim, so you need to think what these will be. It'd be nice if these Inputs could be variable so you could look at various combinations for experimental purposes as per your previous post.

1. Diameter of the flywheel, and its total mass. The sim assumes it is equal density. The last sim had a meter radius from memory.

2. I can attach mass objects near the rim (say 4 equally spaced) which will change the MOI of the flywheel. What mass do you want each one and positioned where (radius) ?

3. The rods used in the sim are all massless. What is the mass you want for each bob ?

N.B. in the original I had to use a short timed pulse (force) to get the wheel turning - if the force was too little it oscillated rather than revolved. If too big it ran on and on. I am anticipating that as you increase the mass of the flywheel, bobs, and rim masses etc that this force will need to be bigger to achieve revolution.

Also note that a sim is effectively lossless energy wise which is why I needed to add some air frictions to approximate some sort of real world losses that you would encounter in a real world build.

I'll edit this post shortly with a pic of suggested sim format which you can comment on.

While you think about this I will quickly plot up a sim diagram so you can see these variable input parameters that 'condition' the sim.

[raj]

Hello Fletcher,

Thank you for helping me.

I do not know how to calculate the different inputs required to achieve the expected result.

If I were able to use your sim above, I would only play around with the four inputs, changing and making several combination of inputs, looking for the combination closest to the expected result, i.e the combination that gives the flywheel the longest run.

It would be searching for best result by trial and error. After reasonable trials, something MUST become obvious, to carry on or not.

Raj

[Fletcher]

And that is the rub Raj .. the physics math appears to be consistent for ALL combinations of Inputs. There doesn't appear to be any 'backdoor' to the problem, or sweetspot, where the Laws of CoE and Momentum can be violated.

The closest I've seen in a while is MrV investigating these very matters in his latest thread which you have know doubt seen. But he tests the theory first, using the math to find the potential weakness in Noether's Theorem, before attempting to find a mechanical arrangement that shifts mass outwards and inwards again (like your design) whilst accumulating system momentums as Potential External Work OUTPUT.

And there lies the crux .. at the very best a sim with no external energy losses to frictions will conserve energy and after an initial push start will settle in to a regularized rpm etc. With the application of some external Work Done to draw mechanical energy from the system it will lose KE and AM until it stops.

The absolute 'acid test' in sim world is to have a mechanical lossless sim ACCELERATE.

IF, after adding in some ordinary system frictional losses, it still ACCELERATES then you probably have found a winner (assuming no bug). That result would need to be replicated in a REAL WORLD build as verification. At this stage I'd have no idea from a trial and error strategy alone how it violated the Laws and math of Physics. And, I'd wonder for sure where the loophole was in the venerable Noether's Theorem. But with something in front of me that WORKED I'd have some sort of clue as to where to start looking one would hope !

[raj]

I believe there is something not quite normal with the motions of the wheel and pendulums in the sim video above.

The angular velocity of the wheel changes (very slightly, almost unnoticeable) from slow to fast and vice versa every 90 degrees turn.

This is presumably because of the gravitational force applied to the point of contact on the wheel when the pendulum going down on the ascending side is more than that of the force applied to the point of contact when the pendulum going down on the descending side of wheel.

This slow/fast motion of the wheel can be checked by closely observing the sim video above.

Turning the wheel into a good FLYWHEEL will make storing intermittent interval force surplus by the swinging pendulums possible for use when needed.

RPM does not tell if there is regular interval change in speed within start and finish of one revolution.

Raj

[Fletcher]

If you follow the trace of the flywheel rpm you will notice (as you have) rpm fluctuations - there are peaks and troughs - in fact two peaks and two troughs per revolution of 360 degs.

The first peak when the crank is at 3 o'cl, next trough at 6 o'cl, next peak at 9 o'cl. next trough at 12 o'cl.

N.B. a peak ironically means reduced RPM and a trough increased RPM.

And of course the angles of the pendulum bob masses acting on the crank at any position adjusts the wheel rpm. This is probably expected.

What I am observing is a TREND of downward RPM over time.

This means the whole of system is LOSING KE and MOMENTUM as I said before. IOW's energy is being bled from the system due to ordinary system losses.

If there were a magic formula or combination of INPUTS that allowed an energy gain it would be reflected in a trace RPM INCREASING over time, on Average.

[raj]

I am continuing my wheel concept with pendulum/s as vital accessories with weights included.
These are the main Bessler clues I am following for now.

So far, I am very happy with my findings.

Raj

[agor95]

Could gravity, dark matter & dark energy be one of the same thing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories

We have Aerodynamics [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerodynamics] were atoms in a gas work to create a force.

Could other forces be derived from the interaction on a electric field with itself?

The concept of Aether was kill off in the 1900. It's odd Cosmic background radiation [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ba ... _radiation]
shows we are travelling through this radiation. It's all about the degree of sensitivity.

Regards - Natural Philosopher