Ambergris Device

[raj]

Hello Agor95,

I have not referred to any Bessler's quotes.

I referred to one possible Bessler's drawing.

[Georg Künstler]

Hi agor95,
your version is a store and release version.

You store some energy on one side of the wheel and release it on the other side. Such types of devices don't work.
But maybe I am wrong.

Here you see my attempt to do this. I tried to store the energy in the springs on one side and release the energy on the other side, during the rotation of the wheel. My version may not correspond to your version.

To roll up a cat requires energy, that is your storage.
Then you release it at the dog's side.
The construction is energy symmetric.
Only my opinion of course.

[agor95]

Hi Georg Künstler

I remember this particular device.

I understand your point that store and release needs something extra.

The first point is the quadrant you are not using are the cavities required
for the Cat & Dog device.

Imagin a spiral spring stretched out flat and locked along the cavity wall on the left. This would be the underside of the cavity. The device rotates clockwise and this spring is released as the cavity raises up the left side.

Now the spring scrolls up. The rim part move down and rolls to become the center of the scroll. This allows the CF to be reduced as the springs CG moves towards the center of the device.

Note the scroll uses an elastic lead to pull it into a wound up scroll.
instead of being a spring which I used for illustration.

As the stored energy has been used the lead is now slack.

The Dog scroll as it rolls out can stretch the lead as CF and gravity work together. This is the flail verse.

So this something extra used gravity and CF in the Dog stage and gravity and reduced CF in the Cat staged.

P.S. I am hoping to use the Lazy Horses verse too show how this
comes together.
Notice how we have a bow twangs and wandering horse.

Has a member looked as a spiral scroll like movement like above?

All the Best

[raj]

It's FUN!

Analysing a cat and dog game.

[Tarsier79]

Hi Agor

My first model used gravity assist at the bottom and a spring return. I have no spiral though.

Do you think Besslers fat lazy horses are just larger weights? Lazy = inertia? They are horses because they are still moving relatively quickly. It takes effort to change their path or speed. I guess they could also be heavy pendulums "wandering" back and forth (MT13?)

[agor95]

The bow twangs;
a large herd of fat, lazy,
plump horses wanders aimlessly.

The word lazy, meaning they do no work.
They have the freedom to move around.
Also are heavy and there is more than one.

I am looking at the verse from two perspectives.

The first is the lazy perspective and this points to a general principle
an inertia mass does not want to accelerate.
So when you have more than one they will move to reduce their total
acceleration to a minimum.

That is the wandering aimlessly part.

I think Bessler is hinting at looking not at the masses doing work but the structure.

The verse starts with 'The bow twangs' which you agree is doing work and fast.

The cunning cat slinks quietly along
and snatches juicy mice.

The dog creeps out of his kennel

So the dog scrolling out is relatively slow, creeps, and then is locked flat.
Then quietly rotates along; being now a cunning cat.

The fast snatch scroll up could push against or at lease take the mass out of the counter torque issue.

Summary

So in general we have a lazyness of the inertial masses and the connected
nature of the structure.

P.S. it's all about seeing and illustrating the alternative and yet compatible way of analyzing the dynamics.

All the Best

[agor95]

Hi Agor

My first model used gravity assist at the bottom and a spring return. I have no spiral though.

Do you think Besslers fat lazy horses are just larger weights? Lazy = inertia? They are horses because they are still moving relatively quickly. It takes effort to change their path or speed. I guess they could also be heavy pendulums "wandering" back and forth (MT13?)

The inertial masses are not moving at all except when they are forced to.
The structure 'pendulums' confines the 'wandering'.

Look at the pendulum as if it's being accelerated up against the lazy horses.

A horizontal pendulum the 'lazy horses' do not need to move much to being with as the pendulum accelerates.

P.S. imagine a series of horizontal pendulum. Small near the rim and increasing to the hub. Why not the golden ration relationship.

Imagine a 'T' shape where the horizontal is the pendulum ans the vertical spur is pulled by the stretch lead. This connects the small rim pendulum to the others via their spurs, say five, with the last connected to the hub.

This would create the pendulum scroll up effect of the cat snatch.

Note I look more at MT135 more than MT137 in relation to the AP poem verses.

All the best.

[Georg Künstler]

Hi agor95,
indeed I have constructed such a device, the suspension point of the pendulum is wandering.

The structure is taking the pendulums with them.
It is like a two stage pendulum.
A carrier,structure which is swinging with attached pendulums.

[agor95]

Hi Georg Künstler

Good to know we have builders investigated this implementation.

1. A good experiment would be a drop test.

The cat component could be tested by the lead placed off the end of a table with a driving mass.

The cat component would be five 'T' pendulums with the horizontal bars flat on the table with the spur vertical pointing up.

As described these 5 'T' reduce in side say by the golden ratio.

The lead is tied to the spur of the smallest and goes through loop(hoops) on the other spurs like eye of needle on the others.

This would draw them up into a spiral as each bar section is connected to the adjacent bar.

Such a setup could be used to time test different values of driver weights.

The test result would help validate a computer simulation.

A second test would be done by placing this unit on a rotating disk too check the dog action. In which it rolls out against an elastic lead or rope/spring combination.

You can see the tension in the lead from the Dog stage in the tension available in the cat stage.

All the Best

[agor95]

Hi Raj

This is a basic test bed device too help in the study of this concept.

The inner-hoop rotates, wheel like, due to an imbalance.
The outer-hoop rotates, turntable like, geared too rotate at the same rate.

This is only a picture the real movement is happening at another place.

Regards

[agor95]

Hello All

Well it took some doing to get the twin axial rotation operating,

The red dots show the path as the AP wheel rotates around it's main yellow axel.
With that causing an outer hoop too rotate by the same rate around the top and bottom vertical spindles.

So the AP rotates like a wheel and the outer hoop rotates like a coin spinning on a table.

Note. I have added another view looking down. The path starts at the top and swirls to the bottom.

Regards

[agor95]

The HTML webpage within the attachment will show you the movement.
You can rotate the model as you view using the right button + drag.

The question I have is;

Could the C.F. be used too keep the mass up.
While following the path shown as it causes rotation in the two loops.

Regards