We All Need to Face Up to the Limits of OB torque

[Sam Peppiatt]

Cloud camper,
No. The wheel can not exceed the acceleration due to gravity. V=at, right? Every rev. at 12:00, the time starts at zero. Say if it fell for one second. Each rev. the weight will only fall for one second. How can it accumulate speed if the time is always for one second----------Sam

[cloud camper]

Hey T79 - thank you for your interest and all your questions are totally valid.

I am still composing the initial simulation and of course I have no guarantee all or any of it will work. It's just a starting point!!

I am just proposing initial hypothetical mechanisms that I am trying to incorporate and should probably wait to see which solutions work and
which don't before discussing them in detail.

But the main idea is we use a swinging weight to turn on the CF field and then an impact to turn it off, the core description of any motor being
able to turn the driving fields on and off.

The impact accomplishes two objectives - transferring accumulated CF energy to the external wheel and killing internal CF that allows easy reset of the weights.

Without the impact, all accumulated CF energy would have to be countered to reset the weights along with lost mgh. A definite loser at that point!

In this initial system there are just two weights in counterbalance.

There are other details occurring - one I haven't mentioned is at impact the impacting weight recoils due to collision and we can use that recoil to
restore significant lost mgh from the initial swing simultaneously shifting the weight to the inner track for the trip back up. I believe this possibly relates to B's statement describing how the weights "shoot up" but we'll see.

Also while the bottom weight is impacting, the upper weight is on an inner track at the top of the stroke which then flips up and over to the outer track adding additional mgh before the downstroke occurs. This flipping action is also assisted by the upper lever arm quickly reversing direction from up to down.

That may or may not actually occur automatically or may require assistance from the
scissor blocks particularly at startup.

So there are several events occurring that attempt to use CF to advantage but that remains to be seen!

So actually the situation is much more complicated than what I have described.

The devil lies in the details!

Happy New Year!

[cloud camper]

Hi again Sam -

Yes the equation V = AT is totally correct with the system starting from zero velocity.

But if the system already has initial velocity at the start of the cycle the equation would be V = AT + V initial which means the velocity would keep
increasing to destruction if it were possible to turn off gravity on the upgoing side of the wheel.

Hope that makes some sense!

Also read T79's last sentence in his post above.

Happy New Year!

[Tarsier79]

Sam, I don't like doing the math thing... But I believe the formula you are looking for is v = vo +at. (Because the weights are not traveling in a straight line it is even a bit more complex than that.)

Half the wheel has a magical gravity shield. Each time the weight moves into the down-going gravity field at speed, gravity accelerates it even more. Because gravity is an acceleration, a mass influenced by it in ideal conditions has no theoretical maximum speed: if friction = 0 then our magical wheel will accelerate into infinity.

ADD: Ha ha, cross-over with CCs message

[WaltzCee]

. .. .. .
I am still composing the initial simulation and of course I have no guarantee all or any of it will work. It's just a starting point!!
. .. .. .
The devil lies in the details!
<& he lies about the details also>
Happy New Year!

I enjoy reading your approach to the problem and don't see too many holes in it.
In my opinion it's a creative; intelligent design. Thanks for sharing.

What inspired you to consider impacts as a switch for CF?

Happy New Year to you too.

[Georg Künstler]

by cloud camper » Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:30 am

Hey T79 - thank you for your interest and all your questions are totally valid.

I am still composing the initial simulation and of course I have no guarantee all or any of it will work. It's just a starting point!!

I am just proposing initial hypothetical mechanisms that I am trying to incorporate and should probably wait to see which solutions work and
which don't before discussing them in detail.

But the main idea is we use a swinging weight to turn on the CF field and then an impact to turn it off, the core description of any motor being
able to turn the driving fields on and off.

The impact accomplishes two objectives - transferring accumulated CF energy to the external wheel and killing internal CF that allows easy reset of the weights.

Without the impact, all accumulated CF energy would have to be countered to reset the weights along with lost mgh. A definite loser at that point!

In this initial system there are just two weights in counterbalance.

The main point is that you have to lift the mass during the impact.
In this case the energy which is invested is not being wasted.
In combination this 2 weights are driving the external wheel.
It requires an synchronized action.
I have described the action during the impact many times.
Therefore I have made a modified Newton pendulum.
A mass can freely move in a carrier, a drum.
During the collision/impact, an ball or an cylindrical weight will be roll upwards in the carrier.
Depending on the speed of the impact/collision the weight will rotate upwards.

Another example is a down rolling drum with a pendulum inside. The drum will be stopped suddenly during the impact, but the pendulum mass will go on and will rotate upwards. against gravity,
As any upward reaction will have also an downward component, as result the drum will press the downwards to the ground.
We have a split of the forces in an up and a down force during a sidewards hit/impact.

The function is an indirect impact, because it is not impacting the mass directly against an object.
An indirect impact will in general result in an rotation due to the suspension point.

[Sam Peppiatt]

CC, T79,
I don't see how the wheel can go faster than what the weight is falling but, never mind-----------------------------------------Sam

[cloud camper]

Just illustrating what can be done with an assymetric field - it gets crazy and I believe thats what B did with CF!!

Newtons laws did not cover this and allows one to start pulling energy out of nowhere!

Newtons laws only describe reactions in an unchanging symmetrical gravitational field.

B got tired after years of failure with gravity only designs and decided to use a force that he could make non-symmetrical to drive his wheel!!

[cloud camper]

. .. .. .
I am still composing the initial simulation and of course I have no guarantee all or any of it will work. It's just a starting point!!
. .. .. .
The devil lies in the details!
<& he lies about the details also>
Happy New Year!

I enjoy reading your approach to the problem and don't see too many holes in it.
In my opinion it's a creative; intelligent design. Thanks for sharing.

What inspired you to consider impacts as a switch for CF?

Happy New Year to you too.

Walt - thank you for your interest - I always stared at that Toy Page and always thought WTF is B thinking with all these impacts - how could that produce anything but a loss?

So there must be a pretty good upside to justify these losses!

And Fletcher convinced me to "think inside the box" - actually just the right side of the wheel - then it started to make sense what B was doing - at least for my fuzzy mind!

But I'm still just speculating like everyone else!

[WaltzCee]

You are welcome CC. Some time ago I SIM'ed an OB contraption that vibrated in a buzz saw manner when driven by a motor. It wasn't aided by CF nor was it hindered. I spun a 3 foot diameter disc up to 300 rpm. I thought I might harvest the energy of that vibration with an escapement & replace the motor so googled it. That brought me back BW and your thread.

So I've been knowing for along time you're a serious enthusiast. If I remember correctly you're a degreed mechanical engineer. Enthusist on steroids!

Switching CF on and off in a rotating FoR would create a similar rotating cloud of energy. I practically eliminated CF and made the cloud with gravity.

Same cat different day.
Let the skinning commence.

It maybe the single most overlooked factor in any design is the energy expense of masses moving. I think yanking some mass to a halt is going to be expensive. Like cemf. That's every wheels objection a design should address.

Tarsier made the point up thread. Starting or stopping expensive.

So if we are to break COE, you need to harvest more energy from the impact than it takes to accelerate the weight from 0 to max:

[cloud camper]

Hey Walt - Happy New Year!

This might flip you out - it did me!

B said he was using "a small impressed force" to initiate the motion.

He's being coy here and diverting trying to make you think elsewhere.

But by creating the small impressed force we get continuous motion.

Here's the deal with CF - normally (well always) the CF force is a vector radially out 90 degrees to the direction of rotation. So when we swing a weight in a gravitational field and then experience an impact the impact is 90 degrees to the CF force.

So we really haven't harvested any CF at all - it is always absorbed in the structure then disappears.

So this is the important part - we actually need a second impact at 90 degrees (radially out from the center) to then harvest the accumulated CF.

The main impact due to gravity then does nothing for us - that's a conservative reaction and must be fully paid back- it is the secondary radial impact that we can use to advantage. This is a much smaller impact - since it is the effect of only one swing of the weight.

And here is where it gets crazy - in B's MT138 diagram we see the upper hammer men really putting their muscle into the swing creating a good hard impact.

Then in the second diagram we see the hammer men all tied up unable to generate a large impact but then we also note the impact is (somewhat) near 90 degrees to the upper one.

How nutty is that - B is showing a double impact with the second impact being much weaker and at 90 degrees to the first!!

OK - it's all just a weird cooincidence!!

[WaltzCee]

. .. .. .
I always stared at that Toy Page

you and everybody's brother.

I look at it as a warning from Bessler in the form of a story. The 2 partners at the top begin the PM journey prosperous and free then go from C to D. They're in straight jackets and are on the Auschwitz diet.

Everyone sees something different. I'm sure Bessler's smiling.
Best of luck on your build. Switching cf on and off seems to me a way Bessler managed to throw Wagner's math out the window.

I've been trying to work out some details of my design and WM has been throwing my math out the window by crashing. A lot. Now when I think I'm going to make a change, I save first.

[cloud camper]

Take a look at MT143 - the very last drawing that B left in his manual for students to educate how the wheel works before ripping out the last pages that showed the final mechanism.

If this whole mechanism rotates just as shown (so it can keep rotating past the slots) we know it is gravitationally balanced left to right but notice that if it was rotating we would have far more CF generated on the right side as the left - then we have the impacts.

So CF is turned on for the right side but turned off for the left.

Now we have a mechanism that is continually OOB due to CF yet is gravitationally balanced all the time.

Can't do anything with that!

Just another crazy cooincidence!!

[Sam Peppiatt]

Cloud Camper, Cloud Camper,
No, No, No, you've gone too far now, you can't turn CF off & on like that (can you)? I worked with it for years and years. It's true, you can develop horrify forces, but no energy until the weight moves out ward, then you lose the CF. Of coarse you have at lot of velocity but it took a lot to get it.
Impacts, I don't know, the force is high, but the time is so short. As bad as gravity can be to solve, it's got to be easer than CF, (maybe),------------Sam

[cloud camper]

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