Part Three is the Charm

[Leafy]

So weird. The earth doesn’t change its status whether the piston is moved or not and neither does the moon.

Earth rotation is needed for this to happens but I don’t think it slowdown or speed up the rotation.

Ok, free energy. Let’s use magnets and design a bulging generator.

[Leafy]

South Pole magnet acts as the moon.

North Pole magnets acts as water.

Stator coils as pistons.

Revolved the South Pole magnet around to generate free electricity?

[Leafy]

Sorry, can’t sleep

Evolution of bulging generator

Move North Pole magnet back and forth. Two south poles magnets moves up and down and generates power.

[Sam Peppiatt]

leafy, That's good stuff. Have the two lower ones on a teeter totter, amazing! I love it-----------------------Sam

[Tarsier79]

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/d ... de.273464/

I had a high-school student ask me this question, and quite frankly, I don't know the answer. It seems obvious by drawing a free body diagram that the gravitational force vector on you, if you are standing on the side of the Earth facing the moon, would be smaller than that if you are standing on the other side of the earth. But what is really confusing me is whether or not you could actually MEASURE this effect using a scale (even assuming perfect precision.It seems to me that you could measure it. But I'm not sure. Can someone please clarify?).

The force exerted by the Moon can be estimated easily relative to the weight . The distance is about 60*R. (R is teh radius of the Earth). So the force will be decrease by a factor of 60^2. The mass of the Moon is about 1/100 the mass of the Earth so this will give a factor of 1/100 for the force. Altogether will be 1/(60^2*100), about 10^(-6). One in a million (actually more like 3 in a million).

I think you might be better just capturing tidal movement.

[Fletcher]

Here's a similar thought experiment using vectors to help 'see' what is happening with net 'g'.

Imagine the earth with straight tunnels right thru it's core center from surface one side to surface other side. One tunnel aligns with the moon earth alignment for arguments sake, but are in many directions.

You drop down the tunnel in a turbo-lift and stop at 1000 kms below the surface. Now there is a substantial mass above and below you, and to the sides of you. You wonder what the 'g' acceleration is on you - it feels much the same as surface 'g'. You keep heading down and stopping periodically to measure net 'g' wherever you stop. When you get to the center of the earths core you note that there is zero 'g' because you can float in the turbo-lift as tho you were floating in outer-space. As you continue out the other side net 'g' starts returning to " surface 'g' ".

When the tunnels align with the moon and sun alignments you have zero 'g' at a place that is not quite the core center.

[eccentrically1]

What about tidal braking? Do the tides and tidal bulge not create friction that slows earth’s rotation?


Tidal braking is the process by which the gravitational force of a celestial body (such as the moon) slows down the rotation of another celestial body (such as the earth) over time. This process can occur when the gravitational force of one body causes a tidal bulge on the surface of the other body, and the rotation of the second body causes the tidal bulge to "drag" against the surface of the first body.

The tides and tidal bulge on the earth do create some friction that can contribute to tidal braking. However, the effect of this friction on the earth's rotation is very small compared to the other forces that influence the earth's angular momentum. The primary force that slows down the earth's rotation is the conservation of angular momentum, which states that the total angular momentum of a system will remain constant unless an external force acts to change it. In the case of the earth, the primary external force that can change its angular momentum is the gravitational pull of the moon and the sun.

In summary, tidal braking is the process by which the gravitational force of a celestial body slows down the rotation of another celestial body over time. The tides and tidal bulge on the earth do create some friction that can contribute to tidal braking, but the effect of this friction on the earth's rotation is very small compared to the other forces that influence the earth's angular momentum. The primary force that slows down the earth's rotation is the conservation of angular momentum and the gravitational pull of the moon and the sun.

Never trust a lecture.

[WaltzCee]

Here's a similar thought experiment using vectors to help 'see' what is happening with net 'g'.
. .. .. .

that would be a cool wm2d sim.

One hole from pole to pole then another thru the equator.

[Fletcher]

Chat.open.ai.com

How do tidal bulges lose energy?

Tidal bulges are created by the gravitational forces of the Moon and the Sun, which cause the oceans on the Earth to rise and fall, creating two high tides and two low tides each day. These tidal forces also act on the solid rock and other materials that make up the Earth and the Moon, causing them to deform slightly. This deformation of the Earth and the Moon releases energy and angular momentum, which is transferred between the two bodies.

The transfer of energy and angular momentum from the Earth to the Moon causes the Moon to move away from the Earth at a rate of about 3.8 centimeters per year. This process is known as lunar recession, and it has been ongoing for billions of years. Over time, the Moon has moved farther and farther away from the Earth, and it will continue to do so until it reaches a point of equilibrium where the tidal forces acting on the Moon are balanced.

In this way, the tidal bulges on the Earth's surface lose energy as they transfer it to the Moon through the process of tidal friction. This process is responsible for slowing the Earth's rotation and increasing the Moon's distance from the Earth over time.

What is tidal friction?

Tidal friction is the process by which energy and angular momentum is transferred from the Earth to the Moon due to the tidal forces between the two bodies. Tidal forces are the gravitational forces that exist between the Earth and the Moon, and they cause the oceans on the Earth to rise and fall, creating the tides. These tidal forces also act on the solid rock and other materials that make up the Earth and the Moon, causing them to deform slightly.

As the Earth rotates on its axis, the tidal forces between the Earth and the Moon cause the solid materials on the Earth and the Moon to deform, creating tidal bulges on the Earth's surface. These tidal bulges transfer energy and angular momentum from the Earth to the Moon through the process of tidal friction. This process slows the Earth's rotation and increases the Moon's distance from the Earth over time.

Tidal friction is a small but significant force that has played an important role in the evolution of the Earth-Moon system. It is responsible for slowing the Earth's rotation, increasing the Moon's distance from the Earth, and causing the Moon to lose angular momentum over time.

..................

Angular Momentum is a conserved quantity - frictions are dissipative (non-conservative) energy losses. If earth RKE is lost then earth Angular Momentum is depleted. To conserve the earth-moon system AM the tidal bulge leads the earth moon alignment increasing the moon's distance to the earth etc etc. The ocean tidal bulge leads because the earth is revolving faster than the moon and its surface friction beneath the oceans drags the tidal bulge ahead, in combination with the ocean viscosity factor (molecular coherence).

[eccentrically1]

I can't argue with that. It's giving the same answer.

Tidal forces are the gravitational forces that exist between the Earth and the Moon, and they cause the oceans on the Earth to rise and fall, creating the tides. These tidal forces also act on the solid rock and other materials that make up the Earth and the Moon, causing them to deform slightly.

And tidal friction is

the process by which energy and angular momentum is transferred from the Earth to the Moon due to the tidal forces between the two bodies.

So we have tidal (gravitational!) forces that create tides. As a result the tidal friction is the process that transfers momentum due to the gravitational forces between the bodies.

If there were no moon, and we didn't need the sun, then there would be no external forces, no bulges, no losses, etc. (Assuming practically none from the rest of the solar system.)

There must be an external force to create the conditions for the transfer. That is what we are looking for in this analogy. So if you can get your mechanism to harness the moon and sun or other, it's a win-win.

[Leafy]

When the earth-moon form a water/solid bulge, the distance between earth and moon becomes closer like an ice skater spin and pull her arms in. This increase angular momentum of the system and therefore, it’s revolving speed. The bulge does not effect earth rotation because the next incoming bulge formed create a force and cancel out the outgoing bulge.

If we have load like a piston extracting bulge energy, the distance between earth-moon becomes even closer because of the load. This cause the system angular momentum to increase even more. However, when the bulge is gone and the load return to normal, the earth-moon distance return to normal.

[Leafy]

Actually the piston load will cause earth rotation to slow down.

As the figure shown the outgoing bulge contains the load piston and therefore exerts a greater pull by the moon. This slows down the earth rotation.

[Fletcher]

I can't argue with that. ...

... So we have tidal (gravitational!) forces that create tides. As a result the tidal friction is the process that transfers momentum due to the gravitational forces between the bodies.

Oh, I see what you did there ;7)

No, and its not semantics, imo .. we have a gravitational differential (netted out 'g') at the earths surface which creates moving land and oceanic tidal bulges. This particular localized gravitational differential happens to be caused by another celestial body flyby within range and able to affect the earths surface gravity differential at their alignment. It is a two-way street. Tidal frictions (both on land and oceanic) (caused by structural deformation) causes energy losses in the form of heat etc. Energy is a conserved quantity. In response the earths rotation rate slows minutely so it has lesser RKE, however the energy budget is still balanced. As a result of theses oceanic frictions with the seabed and the earth rotating faster than the moon is passing overhead drags the oceanic tidal bulge forward (as ovyyus and myself said earlier the earth does Work - gravity can not do Work) of the gravitational alignment i.e. it leads the alignment. This in turn creates a forward directional vector on the moons path and increases its distance from the earth minutely. Thus Angular Momentum is also a conserved quantity i.e. the earth slows down its rotation rate and the moon moves further from the earths surface. And the AM budget is balanced.

ChatGPT : [ This might become the Go-To rather than always asking Mr Google. ]

What is differential gravity?

"Differential gravity is a concept in the field of geodesy, which is the study of the shape and size of the Earth and how it changes over time. Differential gravity refers to the variation in the gravitational field across the Earth's surface. This variation occurs because the Earth is not a perfect sphere, but rather an oblate spheroid, meaning it is slightly flattened at the poles and bulges at the equator. Additionally, the Earth's mass is not distributed evenly, so the gravitational field is stronger in some places and weaker in others.

The Earth and Moon both have differential gravity, meaning that the gravitational field varies across their surfaces. On the Earth, the gravitational field is stronger at the surface near the equator and weaker at the poles due to the Earth's oblate shape. The Moon also has a differential gravitational field, although it is much smaller than the Earth's due to its much smaller size and mass.

The Earth's gravitational field is about 9.8 meters per second squared (m/s^2) at the surface, but it can vary by as much as 0.5% from this average value due to differential gravity. The Moon's gravitational field is about 1.6 m/s^2 at the surface, and it also exhibits variations due to its uneven mass distribution and shape.

Measuring the differential gravity of the Earth and Moon is important for understanding their internal structure and composition, as well as for improving the accuracy of satellite-based navigation systems. Differential gravity measurements are typically made using gravimeters, which are instruments that measure the local gravitational acceleration. The resulting data is used to create maps of the gravitational field, which show the variations in gravity across the surface of the Earth or Moon."

If there were no moon, and we didn't need the sun, then there would be no external forces, no bulges, no losses, etc. (Assuming practically none from the rest of the solar system.)

Yes, there would be no force differential other than normal density etc gravity differentials, and no energy losses as you say (in the context of tidal frictions we are discussing). There are still atmospheric frictional losses etc.

Side Note : When the earth eventually becomes tidally locked to the moons tidally locked state there will be a small tidal bulge that is stationary for all intents and purposes. n.b. the moon will be very distant, and assuming that it is still within range to cause earth to be tidally locked at all.

There must be an external force to create the conditions for the transfer. That is what we are looking for in this analogy. So if you can get your mechanism to harness the moon and sun or other, it's a win-win.

Yes, there must be an external force applied as part of the process of AM exchange between the earth and a true runner interaction, imo. You are fixated on a gravitational interaction as the sole source of that force generation.

My "Momentum Exchange - Quasi Energy Theory" is an attempt to explain where the Input energy originates to allow a mechanical runner to be continually self-moving (and Output Mechanical Work) until its parts wear out or it breaks down etc. And have enough energy density to replicate B's. 54 days long duration test etc.

;7) .. A reverse analogy might be something like this. I place a large vertical flywheel in stands and anchor it to the earths surface. I apply rotational energy to the flywheel to have it spinning at a considerable clip. Attached to the stands is a large set of calipers and disk pads to act as a brake (the external force). I apply the brake and frictions cause the wheel to slow down losing AM. System energy is lost in the form of heat and sound etc. The action of applying the brake creates a torque to the center of the earth, causing the earth to gain in AM by the same amount lost by the wheel as it slows. Energy to apply the brake is equal to the frictional losses etc.

[Leafy]

If we somehow permanently distort the shape of the bulge, it is possible to speed up or slow down earth rotation.

Left shows the moon will pull the center of mass of the distorted bulge and always speed up earth rotation.

Right shows the moon will pull the CoM of the distorted bulge and always slowed down earth rotation.

[ovyyus]

So we have tidal (gravitational!) forces that create tides. As a result the tidal friction is the process that transfers momentum due to the gravitational forces between the bodies.

IMO... 'tidal (gravitational!) forces' create a tidal bulge, not 'tides'. There are no tides on the moon but it has a tidal bulge.

Tides would be created on the moon if the moon had angular momentum (spin). The stored angular momentum of the hypothetical spinning moon would eventually be consumed by the work required to drive it's tides.