To Tarsier79.
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You didn't take your medicine this morning. Please take it.:)
IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?
Moderator: scott
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
You cannot provide drawings because writing implements are too sharp an you are not allowed them?
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
To ME.
================
We are preparing now the necessary drawings. It will take some time.
================
We are preparing now the necessary drawings. It will take some time.
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
To ME.
=========================
The link below describes how the experiment (and the related possible animation) has to take place. The link below contains four drawings, that is, these are Fig. 1A, Fig. 1B, Fig. 2A and Fig. 2B.
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https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/20 ... fig1-2.pdf
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1) Firstly please look at Fig. 1A.
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1 - 1) The red block is called body 1.
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1 - 2) The green ramp and the blue cube are firmly attached one to another thus forming one united whole, which is called body 2.
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1 - 3) The center of mass of body 1 coincides with its geometric center.
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1 - 4) The center of mass of body 2 coincides with the geometric center of the blue cube.
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1 - 5) A spring of characteristic 4 (please look at our previous posts) is attached to the centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2, respectively.
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1 - 6) A straight (dashed) line "a" connects the center of mass of body 1 to the center of mass of body 2. The straight line "a" has the following 2 properties.
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1 - 6 -1) The straight line "a" is the longitudinal axis of symmetry of the spring.
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1 - 6 - 2) The straight line "a" is motionless, that is, it does not move sideways and/or does not rotate at any angle. Actually we illustrate here the point of view of an observer, who is motionless with respect to the straight line "a". In other words, this is the point of view of an observer, who is fixed to (with) the straight line "a".
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1 - 7) The experiment is carried out in a space station under weightlessness conditions. Friction is negligible.
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1 - 8) The sliding contact between the red block and the green ramp is never lost, that is, while sliding relative one to other the red block and the green ramp are always in contact.
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2) Let us now allow the spring to contract. (Please look at Fig. 1B.) The contraction of the spring generates 4 results, which take place simultaneously.
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2 - 1) Body 1 covers the distance "k".
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2 - 2) The centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2 approach each other while moving on the straight line "a".
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2 - 3) Body 1 rotates clockwise at some angle α. The related center of rotation is the center of mass of body 1.
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2 - 4) Body 2 rotates clockwise at some angle β. The related center of rotation is the center of mass of body 2.
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3) Please look at Figs. 2A and 2B. The experiment here is just the same with the only difference that now (a) the blue cube is bigger, (b) the related angles of rotation are smaller and (c) the distances, traveled by the two centers of mass (while moving on the straight line "a" and while approaching each other), are smaller too. In one word, the bigger the blue cube, the smaller the related angles of rotation and the smaller the distances, traveled by the two centers of mass (while moving on the straight line "a" and while approaching each other).
---------------------------------------------
Note 1. The sizes of the red block and the sizes of the green ramp do not change and remain constant. The same for distance "k", that is, k = const.
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Note 2. Figs. 1A and 2A illustrate the starting positions of the experiments and Figs. 1B and 2B illustrate the final positions of the experiments.
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4) What is the couple of forces, which causes the combined motion (straight-line motion + rotary motion) of bodies 1 and 2? These two forces (let us call them G and -G (or whatever capital Latin letter you choose)) are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude. The common line of action of these two forces is the straight line "a". Force G is applied to the center of mass of body 1 and is directed to the center of mass of body 2. Force -G is applied to the center of mass of body 2 and is directed to the center of mass of body 1. And the situation does not change and remains the same if the blue cube is bigger (or much bigger) than the green ramp and the red block.
----------------------------------------------
Shall we do the animation now in accordance with the four drawings and the related text above?
Everything seems to be clear now, doesn't it?
Looking forward to your answer.
=========================
The link below describes how the experiment (and the related possible animation) has to take place. The link below contains four drawings, that is, these are Fig. 1A, Fig. 1B, Fig. 2A and Fig. 2B.
--------------------------------------------
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/20 ... fig1-2.pdf
---------------------------------------------
1) Firstly please look at Fig. 1A.
---------------------------------------------
1 - 1) The red block is called body 1.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 2) The green ramp and the blue cube are firmly attached one to another thus forming one united whole, which is called body 2.
-------------------------------------------------
1 - 3) The center of mass of body 1 coincides with its geometric center.
--------------------------------------------------
1 - 4) The center of mass of body 2 coincides with the geometric center of the blue cube.
--------------------------------------------------
1 - 5) A spring of characteristic 4 (please look at our previous posts) is attached to the centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2, respectively.
--------------------------------------------------
1 - 6) A straight (dashed) line "a" connects the center of mass of body 1 to the center of mass of body 2. The straight line "a" has the following 2 properties.
-------------------------------------------------
1 - 6 -1) The straight line "a" is the longitudinal axis of symmetry of the spring.
-------------------------------------------------
1 - 6 - 2) The straight line "a" is motionless, that is, it does not move sideways and/or does not rotate at any angle. Actually we illustrate here the point of view of an observer, who is motionless with respect to the straight line "a". In other words, this is the point of view of an observer, who is fixed to (with) the straight line "a".
-------------------------------------------------
1 - 7) The experiment is carried out in a space station under weightlessness conditions. Friction is negligible.
-------------------------------------------------
1 - 8) The sliding contact between the red block and the green ramp is never lost, that is, while sliding relative one to other the red block and the green ramp are always in contact.
-------------------------------------------------
2) Let us now allow the spring to contract. (Please look at Fig. 1B.) The contraction of the spring generates 4 results, which take place simultaneously.
-------------------------------------------------
2 - 1) Body 1 covers the distance "k".
-------------------------------------------------
2 - 2) The centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2 approach each other while moving on the straight line "a".
-------------------------------------------------
2 - 3) Body 1 rotates clockwise at some angle α. The related center of rotation is the center of mass of body 1.
-------------------------------------------
2 - 4) Body 2 rotates clockwise at some angle β. The related center of rotation is the center of mass of body 2.
--------------------------------------------
3) Please look at Figs. 2A and 2B. The experiment here is just the same with the only difference that now (a) the blue cube is bigger, (b) the related angles of rotation are smaller and (c) the distances, traveled by the two centers of mass (while moving on the straight line "a" and while approaching each other), are smaller too. In one word, the bigger the blue cube, the smaller the related angles of rotation and the smaller the distances, traveled by the two centers of mass (while moving on the straight line "a" and while approaching each other).
---------------------------------------------
Note 1. The sizes of the red block and the sizes of the green ramp do not change and remain constant. The same for distance "k", that is, k = const.
---------------------------------------------
Note 2. Figs. 1A and 2A illustrate the starting positions of the experiments and Figs. 1B and 2B illustrate the final positions of the experiments.
--------------------------------------------
4) What is the couple of forces, which causes the combined motion (straight-line motion + rotary motion) of bodies 1 and 2? These two forces (let us call them G and -G (or whatever capital Latin letter you choose)) are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude. The common line of action of these two forces is the straight line "a". Force G is applied to the center of mass of body 1 and is directed to the center of mass of body 2. Force -G is applied to the center of mass of body 2 and is directed to the center of mass of body 1. And the situation does not change and remains the same if the blue cube is bigger (or much bigger) than the green ramp and the red block.
----------------------------------------------
Shall we do the animation now in accordance with the four drawings and the related text above?
Everything seems to be clear now, doesn't it?
Looking forward to your answer.
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
George, are you still in high school, or did you get a 17 yr old school girl to draw them for you?
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
Thanks for the images... they are sufficient.
Your accompanied text is seriously confusing--> Meaning: I'm really not going to check & verify if your text corresponds one-on-one with the image and then sign-off. I assume you did that yourself.
Looking at the images , I don't see anything that deviates from the 3rd in-space animation.
The spring tries to contract to its shortest distance (lowest spring potential)
When we ignore friction then whenever the spring starts elongated the whole setup will act just like a pendulum, as is seen int the 3rd in-space animation.
Then:
Your A-situations: At the lowest spring potential the red box will have the highest velocity;
Your B-situations: At the return points it will have the largest spring potential and zero velocity.
The difference with your images (I haven't checked in the simulator, but the following is expected):
1: The red box shoots off the ramp and lands on the box's side and likely will never return to the ramp.
2: The red box shoot off the ramp and lands on the flat side of the box while it rotates 45°. Maybe it returns to the ramp, or maybe not.
So that happens in the most likely case... now it's up to you to verify your homework.
To keep all of us inspired, how does this relate to reactionless drives?
Your accompanied text is seriously confusing--> Meaning: I'm really not going to check & verify if your text corresponds one-on-one with the image and then sign-off. I assume you did that yourself.
Looking at the images , I don't see anything that deviates from the 3rd in-space animation.
The spring tries to contract to its shortest distance (lowest spring potential)
When we ignore friction then whenever the spring starts elongated the whole setup will act just like a pendulum, as is seen int the 3rd in-space animation.
Then:
Your A-situations: At the lowest spring potential the red box will have the highest velocity;
Your B-situations: At the return points it will have the largest spring potential and zero velocity.
The difference with your images (I haven't checked in the simulator, but the following is expected):
1: The red box shoots off the ramp and lands on the box's side and likely will never return to the ramp.
2: The red box shoot off the ramp and lands on the flat side of the box while it rotates 45°. Maybe it returns to the ramp, or maybe not.
So that happens in the most likely case... now it's up to you to verify your homework.
To keep all of us inspired, how does this relate to reactionless drives?
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
Hi ME.
------------------------
Thank you for your reply.
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1) Everything you have written is correct.
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2) In order to avoid the system to behave like a pendulum we put some (partially or entirely) inelastic stop at the end of the distance k.
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3) But the focus of our research is not focused on problems related to the previous items 1 and 2. Please focus on the following aspects of the situation.
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3A) Fixed (to the screen of the animation) and motionless straight line "a". EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!
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3B) Simultaneous straight-line and rotary motions of bodies 1 and 2 while their two centers of mass move on the straight line "a" under the influence of the contracting spring.
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3C) Direction and magnitude of each of the two forces, which are applied to the two centers of mass/to the two ends of the spring. (If each of the two ends of the spring is equipped with a dynamometer, then what would be the readings of each dynamometer? (The two dynamometers are identical.)
----------------------
Looking for ward to your answer
------------------------
Thank you for your reply.
------------------------
1) Everything you have written is correct.
------------------------
2) In order to avoid the system to behave like a pendulum we put some (partially or entirely) inelastic stop at the end of the distance k.
------------------------
3) But the focus of our research is not focused on problems related to the previous items 1 and 2. Please focus on the following aspects of the situation.
-----------------------
3A) Fixed (to the screen of the animation) and motionless straight line "a". EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!
----------------------
3B) Simultaneous straight-line and rotary motions of bodies 1 and 2 while their two centers of mass move on the straight line "a" under the influence of the contracting spring.
-----------------------
3C) Direction and magnitude of each of the two forces, which are applied to the two centers of mass/to the two ends of the spring. (If each of the two ends of the spring is equipped with a dynamometer, then what would be the readings of each dynamometer? (The two dynamometers are identical.)
----------------------
Looking for ward to your answer
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
To ME.
----------------------------------
Hi ME,
1) Negligible friction. Weightlessness conditions.
2) Two bodies.
3) Two centers of mass.
4) Two ends of a spring.
5) Two forces, (a) which cause the motion of bodies 1 and 2, (b) which are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude, (c) which have a common line of action (this is the straight line "a") and (d) which are applied to the two centers of mass, respectively.
6) Two identical dynamometers, which are attached to the two ends of the spring (to the two centers of mass), respectively.
----------------------------
Question: What would be the readings of the two identical dynamometers (a) while the spring contracts and (b) while covering (SOLELY AND ONLY!!!!) distance "k" bodies 1 and 2 slide (without losing contact) relative one to other?
----------------------------
Answer: The readings of the two identical dynamometers would be absolutely identical (as this fact does not depend on sizes, masses and inertia moments of bodies 1 and 2).
----------------------------
As if even without any animation everything seems to be clear enough from Figs. 1A, 1B, 2A and 2B and from the related texts. (It's better to have an animation, of course.)
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
----------------------------------
Hi ME,
1) Negligible friction. Weightlessness conditions.
2) Two bodies.
3) Two centers of mass.
4) Two ends of a spring.
5) Two forces, (a) which cause the motion of bodies 1 and 2, (b) which are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude, (c) which have a common line of action (this is the straight line "a") and (d) which are applied to the two centers of mass, respectively.
6) Two identical dynamometers, which are attached to the two ends of the spring (to the two centers of mass), respectively.
----------------------------
Question: What would be the readings of the two identical dynamometers (a) while the spring contracts and (b) while covering (SOLELY AND ONLY!!!!) distance "k" bodies 1 and 2 slide (without losing contact) relative one to other?
----------------------------
Answer: The readings of the two identical dynamometers would be absolutely identical (as this fact does not depend on sizes, masses and inertia moments of bodies 1 and 2).
----------------------------
As if even without any animation everything seems to be clear enough from Figs. 1A, 1B, 2A and 2B and from the related texts. (It's better to have an animation, of course.)
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
To ME.
-----------------------
No answer from you yet? I will be patient.:) I promise.:)
-----------------------
No answer from you yet? I will be patient.:) I promise.:)
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
The force will be K x L
Where K is the spring constant in [N/m]
Where L is the spring length [m] from it's relaxed position.
Where K is the spring constant in [N/m]
Where L is the spring length [m] from it's relaxed position.
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
To ME.
--------------------------------
Please look at the two links below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(device)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(d ... nlinie.svg
The spring must have characteristic 4.
--------------------------------
Please look at the two links below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(device)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(d ... nlinie.svg
The spring must have characteristic 4.
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
[edit: oh it was the other one]
Sorry, but the situation remains similar to a normal spring that remains under tension.
Whichever type of spring pulls things together, or magnet or gravity, the pull tries to find its most relaxing point. This is where the masses reach their minimum distance.
Thus as a result: The spring-mass situation keeps oscillating around its minimum distance as pictured in all the in-space simulations...
Sorry, but the situation remains similar to a normal spring that remains under tension.
Whichever type of spring pulls things together, or magnet or gravity, the pull tries to find its most relaxing point. This is where the masses reach their minimum distance.
Thus as a result: The spring-mass situation keeps oscillating around its minimum distance as pictured in all the in-space simulations...
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
To all members of this forum who are not obvious agents of the official science mafia like ME (a highly qualified agent) and tarsier79 (an ignoramus).
====================
Please look again at the link https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/20 ... fig1-2.pdf
-------------------------------
1) Negligible friction. Weightlessness conditions.
2) Two bodies.
3) Two centers of mass.
4) Two ends of a spring.
5) Two forces, (a) which cause the motion of bodies 1 and 2, (b) which are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude, (c) which have a common line of action (this is the straight line "a") and (d) which are applied to the two centers of mass, respectively.
6) Two identical dynamometers, which are attached to the two ends of the spring (to the two centers of mass), respectively.
----------------------------
Question: What would be the readings of the two identical dynamometers (a) while the spring contracts and (b) while covering (SOLELY AND ONLY!!!!) distance "k" bodies 1 and 2 slide (without losing contact) relative one to other?
----------------------------
Answer: The readings of the two identical dynamometers would be absolutely identical (a) while the spring contracts and (b) while covering (SOLELY AND ONLY!!!!) distance "k" bodies 1 and 2 slide (without losing contact) relative one to other (as this fact does not depend on sizes, masses and inertia moments of bodies 1 and 2).
----------------------------
Do you accept the validity of this last sentence?
----------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
====================
Please look again at the link https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/20 ... fig1-2.pdf
-------------------------------
1) Negligible friction. Weightlessness conditions.
2) Two bodies.
3) Two centers of mass.
4) Two ends of a spring.
5) Two forces, (a) which cause the motion of bodies 1 and 2, (b) which are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude, (c) which have a common line of action (this is the straight line "a") and (d) which are applied to the two centers of mass, respectively.
6) Two identical dynamometers, which are attached to the two ends of the spring (to the two centers of mass), respectively.
----------------------------
Question: What would be the readings of the two identical dynamometers (a) while the spring contracts and (b) while covering (SOLELY AND ONLY!!!!) distance "k" bodies 1 and 2 slide (without losing contact) relative one to other?
----------------------------
Answer: The readings of the two identical dynamometers would be absolutely identical (a) while the spring contracts and (b) while covering (SOLELY AND ONLY!!!!) distance "k" bodies 1 and 2 slide (without losing contact) relative one to other (as this fact does not depend on sizes, masses and inertia moments of bodies 1 and 2).
----------------------------
Do you accept the validity of this last sentence?
----------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
Ey, it's "Science Mafia"!
So why don't you come up with some proof of that!
Inquiring minds demand to know! (And I'm curious too).
Anyway, care to explain what's your issue here?
What's exactly wrong with my previous replies, and what reply would you actually like?
Which reply would satisfy whatever you have in mind?
Would you like to pinpoint for me any mistake you figured that must be there...
The situation:
Call me Sam, if you really want, it's all the same to me.
Also, it doesn't change the answer to your overcomplicated basic physics questions.
Regards, Science Agent Marchello E.
So why don't you come up with some proof of that!
Inquiring minds demand to know! (And I'm curious too).
Anyway, care to explain what's your issue here?
What's exactly wrong with my previous replies, and what reply would you actually like?
Which reply would satisfy whatever you have in mind?
Would you like to pinpoint for me any mistake you figured that must be there...
The situation:
- Two body get attracted by whichever force, in this case a spring.
Maybe there's something in between these bodies, a ramp perhaps (apparently we lost it along the way?).
- Two bodies are pulled closer and closer by the spring.
Until they can't get any closer, because otherwise that would cause the spring to expand against the attracting springforce again.
Which may happen when the bodies are able to apply a counterforce, like having a velocity-vector pointing away from that closest point.
- They are the same, because they measure exactly the same.
It measures less than when it started
Call me Sam, if you really want, it's all the same to me.
Also, it doesn't change the answer to your overcomplicated basic physics questions.
Regards, Science Agent Marchello E.
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
re: IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHI
"A ramp makes over unity" Says the 15 yr old general science student to her teacher...... And I am the ignoramus? I am not the blind twat walking around in her own fantasy land, missing a chromosome or two, pointing at every person that walks past in a suit yelling "Men in Black is real! Science is bad! Praise the Spaghetti Monster!"