Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

[daxwc]

One last thought: The pendulums in Bessler’s drawings could have been there to hint at a hidden design; something that was widely understood at the time but is now lost on us. Perhaps it was a concept or symbol that the intellectuals or Masons of the period would have recognized, but modern eyes have become blind to its true meaning.

The mystery is why most of us have been here so long ;)

[Sam Peppiatt]

So; I'm supposed to believe that a heavy wooden was actually the prime mover, all along. I never would have guessed-------------Sam

[Fletcher]

Hey Fletcher, Try this one (attached), I think it should work.

The method is like this:

1. Connect a gear element from the first swinger to the idler wheel. Set the gear ratio to -2.000
2. Second swinger moved to front, I pinned it to a separate anchored object (shouldn't be necessary in theory).
3. Connect another gear element, now from the second swinger to the idler wheel. Set the gear ratio to +2.000

4. Let it go! Plus a pint of red ale... Hopefully that works!

Well, sometimes these stacked things might go out of the window without a reason. But usually a workaround can be found, most of the times.

The reason for the gear ratios -2 and +2 is because if you try it with -1 / +1, then wm2d will look into the abyss in quite a weird way...

Otherwise, it can be any number further from -1 / 1, and that must work the same.

Worked a treat Gregory :7) - ta very hard mate .. yep, weird weird weird - any ratio other than the 1.0's ( who woulda thought ) - anything less than or greater than 1.0 works as I'd expect, otherwise it drops of the page quicker than I can chug a pint of red ale lol .. I'll raise my first pint to you tonight in appreciation .. you just solved a problem that has plagued me for years ( never thought of trying another ratio ( it's not logical ) - but you are right, especially with stacked items - and I usually can find a workaround but using the gears appears completely stable and is nice and tidy ( will do some more testing ) - and visually more closely represents a true bent-arm A action ( all thru MT ) - cheers ..

[Fletcher]

Yes JB and Fletcher I got the wrong wheel and it was before he could transport it. That said it doesn’t stop the action mentioned.

Fletcher: “they rationalized it as a person in the next room periodically pulling a hidden crank inside the post via the rope and rocker in the roof to cause the whole post to lift upwards for half a turn - then the post sat back down again for the next half turn .”

Exactly… the oddest thing; I assume he knew what a resonate vibration or unbalance (crooked shaft) looked like as Borlach was a mining engineer and surveyor.

Axle or Shaft Issues: If the axle or shaft is not perfectly straight, it would cause the whole wheel to move up and down as it rotates. Which would have been noticed. Usually you see other things shaking before looking at the shaft.

... Maybe Trev but then wheel had a shifting mass or internal mechanism that generated a torque perpendicular to the rotation. Precession is usually a high speed phenomenon. So then it needs even more torque sideways. I would assume this would cause the wheel/shaft to also slide or shift side-to-side if there were lateral forces. Yet we have open U bearings in the later wheel.

Also if Bessler needed a ceiling post, it means something about the forces involved required extra stabilization; which doesn’t happen in a simple, passive spinning system.

That is true , i was thinking an axle inside however i cant imagine that being full of compartments and holes , only thing to say is there was an force on the post presumably coming from the axle , however as you mention Daxwc - why would the wheel not have rocked about and been mentioned is the same question i would ask.

Here's the thing .. the Merseburg wheel had a solid 6 inch wooded axle - this is the same wheel that was put thru the translocation and doing work tests a few months later - for that exercise B. had to make a second set of support posts from floor to ceiling - it was an important test with Karl present - he would have checked and double checked everything was in order and tickety boo, so there were no embarrassing questions then or afterwards for him or Karl such as G. and B. raised ( and he steadfastly didn't answer ) ..

Here's the next thing .. an unavoidable joining of dots - in the later translocation tests of the same wheel, after the translocation the bearings were left open as you said dax - YET, the wheel did NOT do a one-legged or even two legged slow hop each and every revolution, OR climb the open casing ! - so its weight was holding it down ( at both open bearings ) as it revolved and there was no up-force from the wheel itself dynamics sufficient to temporarily unload some of its weight and cause it to with regularity lift its own weight upwards - not one mention of that by the many official observers in the open bearing tests who signed the official testimonial, or anyone else for that matter who wrote about it ..

............................

[johannesbender]

@Fletcher , this is why in an earlier discussion somewhere on the forum about this same topic , i wrote my opinion is the lifting could have been just made up to try and support his accusation against Bessler , but who knows Bessler never replied on the apparent lifting post , but if the post lifted then the axle must have lifted along - and therefore the wheel when looked from the side must have rocked too since it is connected to the axle , how much rocking would depending on how far the wheel is located from one side of the axle to the other (middle or somewhere to one side as drawn).

[daxwc]

JB: @Fletcher, in an earlier discussion on this topic, I mentioned that the lifting could have been fabricated to support his accusation against Bessler. But who knows? Bessler never responded to the lifting post. If the post lifted, then the axle must have lifted too. Consequently, when viewed from the side, the wheel would have rocked since it's connected to the axle. The extent of the rocking would depend on where the wheel is situated on the axle—whether in the middle or closer to one side.

I respectfully disagree, JB. The wheel isn't being lifted. It's not shaking or vibrating. In my humble opinion, the wheel is experiencing a direct downward force every half cycle.

It's like when you laden a shaft in machinery. You see the shaft/axle move in the direction of the force. Often, this force is perpendicular, causing the shaft to shift slightly left or right within the roller bearings. So, considering the periodic force, we can imagine that each downward push aligns with a specific point in the wheel's rotation. This would create a consistent rhythm, rather than an erratic shaking or lifting . This repetitive downward force ensures that the wheel remains stable and doesn't rock or lift.


This can be likened to the motion of a piston in an engine, moving up and down in a controlled manner due to the consistent application of force. Similarly, the wheel experiences a predictable movement with the force applied every half cycle, maintaining stability and preventing any rocking motion but is opening the cracks up upon weight transfer.

A better way to say it is not opening the cracks it is moving the cracks.

Hopefully that made sense.

[Georg Künstler]

The strange thing about the wheel is that it does not bounce due to its internal movement.
So there is no imbalance as we suspect.

If you have an eccentric mass distribution, the wheel itself will bounce up and down, and also the wheel try to move from left to the right.
So on your axle the forces variate.
This is also not the case in the wheel.

As result we don't need a fixation on the ceiling, a normal support frame like this

support frame

is efficient.

The wheel only has to be vertical, therefore the spirit level on the bottom of the support frame.
The bearings are U-shaped and the wheel can be lifted from the support frame.

@Sam, your look on the things are right, the cylinders are rolling.

[daxwc]

Personally my opinion right now is the posts/pillars went to the celling only for one reason that is to hang his external pendulums off. What role do they play?

So the wheel runs without the external pendulums but they are crucial. in fact so crucial that he draws them in his drawings to cement his legacy if the invention is ever rediscovered. yes/no?

By including them in his drawings, Bessler likely aimed to emphasize their importance and ensure that anyone who studies his work in the future would understand their significance. So they are not directly part of the secret mechanism/action/motion but needed in some compacity.

[daxwc]

For those that say there is no evidence that the external pendulums exist because it was never reported need to remember the quote, "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence." Even Borlach's drawings have the cranks on the outside of the wheel, where the pendulums would attach.

[johannesbender]

This is what i am saying , if at B the post moved up and down then since the axle goes through A where the accused hidden crank was drawn , then the axle would have followed the post up and down and therefore the wheel would have rocked along with the axle , why would that not have been a mention if the post really moved up and down ? for the wheel not to have rocked - it would have had the axle magically hover in one place while the post moved.

[daxwc]

Nice drawing by the way JB.
But I think both sides of the axle and bearings are going down just the other side is just flexing and not breaking the paint. We are talking millimeters of movement.

[johannesbender]

The way i showed is the way i understood the accusation , because of the single crank location in the single post on the drawing with the markings A and B on that particular side , the details sound murky , but i think the main point was an accusation of a human power driven crank force being shown via cracks opening up and showing a movement of the post.

[Sam Peppiatt]

The only way to shut them up is to get a wheel running-----------------Sam

[spinner361]

The only way to shut them up is to get a wheel running-----------------Sam

Well, that was not the case the first time around. Skepticism is probably a good idea. Nobody wants to play the fool. Maybe skepticism will allow enough time for the information to be spread before any retaliation against the inventor, making retaliation less useful.

[Gregory]

Worked a treat Gregory :7) - ta very hard mate .. yep, weird weird weird - any ratio other than the 1.0's ( who woulda thought ) - anything less than or greater than 1.0 works as I'd expect, otherwise it drops of the page quicker than I can chug a pint of red ale lol .. I'll raise my first pint to you tonight in appreciation .. you just solved a problem that has plagued me for years ( never thought of trying another ratio ( it's not logical ) - but you are right, especially with stacked items - and I usually can find a workaround but using the gears appears completely stable and is nice and tidy ( will do some more testing ) - and visually more closely represents a true bent-arm A action ( all thru MT ) - cheers ..

Haha, cheers mate! :)
I happy if it worked! Enjoy your red ale, I also open mine.

One stupid problem can occur with stacking...
A pin joint at the bottom of a stack can sometimes jump across the whole to the top. Obviously we use joints for a reason, so that can be pretty annoying! But no worries... If you take it apart, fix the missing joint and put it all back together... Then it will work again, it's just a pain...
That's why I usually do a Save As when some stacked design is completed, and only advance/change things in the new file. So, If something goes wrong I can always go back to version one without much effort.

So yes, anything other than -1 works, f.e. -0.95 or -1.05
Absolute nonsense... It's totally not logical, most likely a bug in the software.
When I first encountered it, I was like... what the heck? Then I tried another number and laughed out loud, wtf...

Perhaps wm2d is afraid of Euler's identity, aka -1.
Like our Orange Stickman in the animation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1J6Ou4q8vE