A Picture of JEEB's Axle.

[rlortie]

Ken,

to prevent any rotation of the brass bushing should there be a lubrication failure between the pivot and bushing that might cause the bushing to begin sticking to the pivot and then rotating in its nest.

you are still not seeing the picture, the whole idea is the the bushing is supposed to stick to the pin and and roll in its nest, therefore increasing the diameter of axis on one end at a time that causes bushing to travel up the groove to an incline where axle, like a pendulum slides out and into bushing on other end.

In regards to your washer and Cotter Key, any force applied there would cause the cotter key to rub on the washer as washer has larger contact area with shaft.

As for making the half bushing you describe, (cutting a cylinder in half and then hollowing it out) would not be as easy as to leave it whole and taper bore the hole. They did have lathes in those days but a good hack saw may have been another story.

THe columns must be strong enough to withstand the lateral force projected. This cannot be that much as you yourself calculated that the whole assembly turning was equal to 25 watts of output.

To me the convenience of translocating is not a priority item as much as keeping the wheel turning. It has been said that it took a number of men to move the wheel where as I replied once out of it bearings one man could roll it.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Fletcher,

In my post above entitled "food for thought" I find that someone else may have influenced my thinking.

I think the appended plans referred to, re the application on each side of small weights, were the familiar wood cuts he was referring to & the external pendulums that were never built or exhibited

.

Sorry about that, and I now acknowledge this and give credit to you.

Ralph

[Stewart]

(I was expecting to hear from Stewart...)

Sorry Jonathan I've been away from home for the past five weeks and I won't be back until the weekend, which is why you haven't heard much from me lately.

The DT passage you quoted hasn't been transcribed correctly. This is what it should be (italics = non-German word):

Sie ruhet in ihrer Bewegung auf zweyen fast 1. Zoll dicken/ am Orth etwas zugespitzten stählern Zapffen Waag-recht in denen zweyen Pfannen oder Zapfen-Lagern/ mit zweyen Courven versehen/ um an selbigen den Motum rotatorium des gantzen also verticaliter suspendirten Rades/ durch beyderseits zu applicirende Pendula etwa modificiren zu können/ wie beygefügte Figuren zu Ende dieses Tractats deutlich zeigen.

Here I've changed some words to their more modern equivalents (you should have better luck running this through translation software):

Sie ruhet in ihrer Bewegung auf zweien fast 1 Zoll dicken, am Ort etwas zugespitzten stählern Zapfen Waagrecht in denen zweien Pfannen oder Zapfenlagern, mit zweien Courven versehen, um an selbigen den Motum rotatorium des ganzen also verticaliter suspendirten Rades, durch beiderseits zu applicirende Pendula etwa modificiren zu können, wie beigefügte Figuren zu Ende dieses Tractats deutlich zeigen.

Here is my translation:

It rests in its movement on two nearly 1 inch thick, slightly tapered steel pivots located horizontally in their two sockets or pivot bearings, equipped with two curves/cranks, through which the rotary motion of the whole vertically suspended wheel can be slightly regulated by the attachment of pendula on both sides, as the enclosed figures at the end of this treatise clearly show.

The following is from the description of the copperplate engraving of the Merseburg wheel in "Grundlicher Bericht" (to see the whole description which I posted in another topic click here):

10. Die Corben selbst, oder Stiffte, so in die Welle eingeschraubt,

10. The cranks themselves, or pivots, screwed into the axle,

My interpretation of these pieces of text is shown in the attached picture.

To relocate the wheel, the cranks/pivots are unscrewed allowing the wheel to be lowered to the floor and rolled to the second set of supports. The pivot is tapered for the reasons already suggested in this topic, but I think it should be tapered in the opposite direction to allow the wheel to be removed easily.

I don't think there is anything special about the bearings used to support the wheel. If there was it would have been noted by the eyewitnesses who examined them.

Regards,
Stewart

[ken_behrendt]

Ralph...

You wrote:

you are still not seeing the picture, the whole idea is the the bushing is supposed to stick to the pin and and roll in its nest, therefore increasing the diameter of axis on one end at a time that causes bushing to travel up the groove to an incline where axle, like a pendulum slides out and into bushing on other end.

If I read that statement of yours correctly, you seem to be saying that the bushing is supposed to stick to the tapered end of the pivot and then the pivot along with its attached bushing is supposed to rotate inside of the bushing nest!?

No...that can not be right. That bushing is supposed to be stationary in its nest at all times while only the pivot it supports is rotating.

Also, concerning your complaint about the cotter pin. The cotter pin might rotate against the spacer washer (but not necessarily...they could turn together if the washer is not in contact with the brass half moon bushing piece) , but if it was lubricated then it would not appreciably wear.

Actually, I do not think the spacer washer's main role would be to prevent bowing of the vertical support columns. That would be achieved mainly by making sure that the columns were thick enough and strong enough to prevent bowing. However, the cotter pins and spacer washers could act as an effective back up system to prevent the complete failure of the supports should they begin to bow. Even more importantly, the cotter pins and spacer washer would help center the axle between the vertical supports and limit the lateral motion of the axle.

ken

[ken_behrendt]

Stewart...

Those 3D graphics of yours look great, but I notice that your idea that the pivots screw into the ends of the wooden axle forces you to reverse the direction of the taper on the pivots.

I think such a design would be a problem because, everytime the wheel was moved, it would be necessary to unscrew and then rescrew the steel pivots into wood. Over time that would tend to chew up the threads in the wooden axle and loosen the pivots.

ken

[rlortie]

Ken,

No...that can not be right. That bushing is supposed to be stationary in its nest at all times while only the pivot it supports is rotating.

No... man will never fly, No... man will never reach the moon!!!!

Do you have any Bessler reference that states the bushing is supposed to be stationary? Where as he stated through which the rotary motion of the whole vertically suspended wheel can be slightly regulated by the attachment of pendula on both sides, as the enclosed figures at the end of this treatise clearly show.

Ralph

[Stewart]

Hi Ken

I think such a design would be a problem because, everytime the wheel was moved, it would be necessary to unscrew and then rescrew the steel pivots into wood. Over time that would tend to chew up the threads in the wooden axle and loosen the pivots.

I don't think this would be much of a problem. The wheel was only used for demonstration purposes and wasn't built to be a production model - it didn't need to last very long. I doubt it was even moved between supports very often. However, I'm open to suggestions as to other interpretations of "10. The cranks themselves, or pivots, screwed into the axle,". What do you think he means?

Regards,
Stewart

[Jonathan]

Thanks Stewart, I'm happy to find you think I'm substantially right. Of course I was the one who transcribed it, I just can't read that script! That the taper goes the other way never occurred to me, your (cool) 3d attachment seems to be the best theory so far.

[rlortie]

Gentleman,

Sorry but I cannot let this pass without getting it off my chest.

Everything I have posted in this forum has been hypothetical [think-tank] ideas for all to debate, refute rebuke or what ever. I have always been under the impression that that is what we are here for.

THe consensus on an idea may vary and most never get a solid set answer. We are searching for Besslers concept of wheel motivation, right? We do this with an open mind, right?

To have a member tell me, that NO! you cannot have a bearing or bushing turning in a race weighs heavy on my feelings. Is this coming from someone who carries a reputation for being receptive or am I beating my head against a wall. Either way I feel that my efforts are in vain for he who will not listen is hearing words from a fool.

Ralph

[ovyyus]

Ralph, until someone can prove otherwise everything is hypothetical. I think a "NO" is as valid an opinion as a "YES" in a ship of fools :P

How's JK's machine coming along? If he's playing with a full deck then the problem is already solved and all that remains is your independant build to back up his claim with a working replication. Do you still believe JK's claim of success? If it works, hopefully it doesn't contain any 'wobbly' bits in it otherwise Georg will be jumping all over it with priority claims - lol

[rlortie]

Bill,

Your right about the ship of fools, believe it or not I needed to hear something like this as I was really down emotionally. I have been pushing to hard between wheels forums and domestic prioritys.

Between posts today I worked in an attempt to repair the roof on my RV trailer and had difficulty handle 4X8 sheets of laminate in the wind. I took numerus breaks to cool my nerves and made a number of posts. When I received a big No!, it was more than I could handle. The roof is finished and I am exhausted.

You ask about JK's machine;

I built a version using materials that I thought best. It does not work. I have set it aside for a while to contemplate what to do with it. I have not gave up by any means. I cannot go into details but I still think there is possibilities in the basic design. My proto needs lateral friction reduced as this machine builds a lot of force that I did not foresee.

Jim still swears in his own way that it will work and that he has built many in the past. As of this date, he has not informed my as to whether he has completed his version. we are communicating on a regular basis and keep each other informed of ideas and shortcuts regarding his machine.

I cannot explain my premonitions about Jim K, but I trust him and believe what he says is gospel. His concept, with the exception of a couple items is by no means new. It has been around for numerous years. Its the two additional items that has me believing it will work.

I have stuck my neck out on this one and will ride it to the grave or until I exhaust myself of all possible feasibilities.

Ralph

[rks1878]

I had no idea that this thread I laid down would develop into such a firestorm of controversy. But, it's good to air things out.
May I add what I believe is the reason for the tapers?
Seems that everyone believes JB used them on purpose, but I think they were just used parts from a small buggy wagon. I know these axles were tapered, as were gun carriages. The ends of these axles were curved down to help keep the wheels on.
The only other places I've seen tapers is in drill press quills and lathe head and tailstocks, used to hold chucks and centers, etc.
I don't know how long babbitt has been around, but these are in halves, so it was probably something like that. A molten babbitt pour would also conform to all the little concentric irregularities in the wheel axle...

[ovyyus]

Glad to hear you're feeling better Ralph.

Thanks for the JK update. I really wish you and he the best of luck with it. I do not, however, fully grasp why James has made such a claim of multiple success and yet has no previous models to prove it. Based on past experience... you know what I'm going to say :) Let's hope this time around it will be different!

[rlortie]

Robert,
This tapered axle idea has been talked about in a thread I started back in January. What goes around, comes around. Perpetual at its finest!


Those that are interested can find it here. http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767

All that has been stated here is more descriptive in this older thread. Reason being that I was still fresh with ideas and my research had not grown cold.

Babbitt was invented by Isacc Babbitt here in the united states. I have not been able to date it though. Bessler may have used the same alloys as Pewter which has little difference than babbitt. The key ingredient in both is antimony and the percentage of tin.

Early autos used babbitt bearings and if you ever "threw your babbitt" a piece of bacon rind would get you by in an emergency.


Ralph

[ken_behrendt]

Ralph...

I finally got a chance to catch up on some of the posts to topics here. I was sorry to read that you were so upset by my rejection of your approach to Bessler's method of supporting the axles of his wheels. Please do not take it personally, but I tend to adhere to my own approach after reading the following lines from John Collin's excellent book on Bessler:


page 114: From Wolff's "impartial comments...prepared for His Majesty the Czar" on July 3rd, 1722:

"...the wheel bearings were uncovered on both sides and one could see the axle journals turning in their bearings."

page 145: From a Kassel letter dated February 3rd, 1729 by Jean-Pierre de Crousaz to Professor d'Gravesande:

"I examined the bearings on which the journals rested..."

To me, this all implies that the wheel bearings (or what I think were half moon shaped brass bushings) and the journals (which I call pivots) were separate pieces and that the pivots could be lifted off of and away from the half moon shaped bushings.



Stewart...

You wrote:

However, I'm open to suggestions as to other interpretations of "10. The cranks themselves, or pivots, screwed into the axle,". What do you think he means?

Well, if JB says he screwed the steel pivots into the ends of the wooden axle, then that is good enough for me. However, that does not change my view of what the pivots and their supportive brass bearings or bushings might have looked like one bit.

In my illustrations, I always show the axle side of the pivot pieces as being untapered and then merely pressed into a shaft bored into the end of the axle. Yes, Bessler could have threaded the axle side of the pivots and screwed them into place. However, if he did that, then I would imagine that it was a permanent installation of the pivot which would make the method of mounting the axle between the vertical support columns that I suggest even more probable.


Ultimately, I have to consider this discussion of the methods Bessler may or may not have employed to support his rotating wheels somewhat of a side issue. The real mystery we have to solve is what was going on inside of the drums of his wheels...

ken