A theory about why the number five is so prominent in Johann Bessler's works.

[daxwc]

Nic quote:

As to runtime, not a valid point. The aim is to extract maximum effect asap before that darn thief entropy turns up

Yes, Nic sorry; it is not a valid point on my part.

The mass to axle point is valid if you mean this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud22NkZJG2Q
Balance point of the wrench is one cm off ratchet towards handle, so it's fulcrum heavy, making a bit wheel like for the most part of it's weight, but that doesn't expalin away 400 + grams.

640 gram of tool and it only registers as 200 gram to maintain at horizontal.

Yes, that is what I am talking about how much of the missing 400g goes back into rotation after it starts to swing?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJtB8eUEtCk
In this video can you take your machine apart and weigh the pendulum arm, wooden hub and bob altogether on a horizontal surface. We would be interested in how much more it weighs than your static mass.


I was interested at one time about leveraging falling mass as it falls than giving it back before impact. May though the reverse can be done.

[Michael]

I'm not sure of the points made on what artists do and not do. Yes a lot of artists construct images on construction lines. They can be perspective lines but they can also be based on or embody other math shapes in their images. A lot of artists believed that there was perfection in math shapes so they included them in their images. Although it is a common belief greeks built a lot of their monuments around phi, there is also a debate that this isn't as true or as widely done as commonly believed. And it definately isn't as wide as commonly believed in nature. There are close approximations but a generalized approximation isn't dead on to point.

[daxwc]

Yes you are right; the topic is hotly debated, but was it debated in Besslers time?

[john]

@All,
I thought of something that might be a bit of a stretch when it comes to the number 5.
Bessler said if someone looks at his drawings closely, there is something to be learned.
The Pythagorean were a sect that were into astronomy as well as math it seems. A Pythagorean invented trigonometry.
And with it, they could understand the behavior of the 5 planets visible to the naked eye. You see, there are times the planets seem to move backwards or have a retrograde motion. By using trigonometry, their behavior could be understood.
Like I said, it's a bit of a stretch. What is interesting is a machine they are credited with building. Some are trying to recreate it as it accurately portrays the orbits of the then known planets. I'm not sure what the device is called, can check later.

John

[jim_mich]

I'm not sure what the device is called,

It's called an "Orrery" or more properly a planetarium.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orrery

An orrery is a mechanical device that illustrates the relative positions and motions of the planets and moons in the Solar System in a heliocentric model. Though the Greeks had working planetaria, the first orrery that was a planetarium of the modern era was produced in 1704, and one was presented to the Earl of Orrery — whence the name came. They are typically driven by a clockwork mechanism with a globe representing the Sun at the centre, and with a planet at the end of each of the arms.

John Collins in his book PM-AAMS talks about John Rowley making an Orrery.

[john]

Thx Jim. I watched a show recently where they were trying to build an accurate replica. Some of the details they were stuck on. I think there are 2 groups trying to understand the engineering. The planetarium they showed was encrusted and had to be x-rayed to see the mechanisms of the wheel.
I think one of the purposes of the planetarium was for predicting eclipses.
I wonder if this might have influenced Bessler in some way.

John

[john]

@All, there might be an abstract way that a planetarium could have something in common with Bessler's wheel. This would be the retrograde motion of Mars.
Looking at a planetarium, this might be missed. But from viewing Mars from Earth, this is a period of time where it appears to slow down and speed up.
Maybe Bessler saw where something in his wheel did this same thing. Like I said, it's a stretch.

John

[John Collins]

Coincidentally, the Orrery designed and built by Graham, whose patron was Lord Orrery, who gave his name to the planetarium, was a friend and mentor of John Rowley. Rowley took the design and updated and improved it, and it is still in existence today at the Science Museum -
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects ... 52-73.aspx

He travelled to Kassel, to deliver and install a gift of an ornamental sundial from the King George l, for Karl, and while he was there was able to examine Bessler's wheel. He spent the remainder of his life trying to understand Bessler's wheel.

John Harrison said Rowley was the foremost instrument maker in England.

JC

[nicbordeaux]

Did Rowley publish anything about his search for the Bessler wheel operation ?

[John Collins]

No Nic, there's only circumstantial evidence that he did the research.

JC

[john]

J.C,.
There is a reason I specifically mentioned Mars "odd" behavior. And within the 5 observable planets, it's known.
As it happens, what I am working on has a fluid that might seem to speed up or slow down when in reality, it has no velocity.
Basically, the leveraged weight would convert it's potential into angular momentum (spin).
It is something missing in the planetarium of Orerry. That could be one reason why Bessler kept referencing the number 5. The other possibility is what Jesus said, symbolism is for the devil.
If so, then Bessler might have pointed his symbolism towards religion, ie., the Freemasons Rosicrucian.
And as the book of Genesis states, one can look to the stars for sign. As such, with Bessler, it might have been to a sign in astrology. And the only sign in astrology that moves like a fluid is a fluid, water. And of course, if water is moved using something akin to a stork's bill, it might change velociity. The closer in, the fasster it moves.
Just an opinion.

John

edited to add, on the engineering side of things, it does cost little to test ideas. The current project I've been working on most likely can be tested for under $30 U.S. Yet have no takers willing to work cooperatively as I can easily afford that.
The strange part ? With pulley's, a problem might be solved. This would mean that pulley's and levers work together in a fashion.
As it is, this weekend, I need to maintennce my motor transport. Work is more important than Bessler. Bills do need to be payed, right ?
Of course, until rubber meets the pavement, it's all talk.

[shap-O-vert]

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/files/bessler_5s.jpg

[path_finder]

Take a look at this URL:http://www.zfm.ethz.ch/meca/applets/cyclo/cyclo.html
Replace the number 4 by the number 3, click on TRIPLOID and PLAY or UPDATE.
Now you can see some calligraphy swirls like usual by Bessler, but more strange, FIVE detours in the yellow path.

The upper part of the drawing located on the Bessler's door keystone could be in relation with this path:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/files ... _teeth.jpg

[johannesbender]

i am able to reproduce venus path and the pentagram (an inverse of venus path)
in geometric form aswell as mt 137 and besslers scrible in his portrait
with a simple formulae , using the same formulae i am able to get 137 from
55 and also the reason i tried achieving mt 137s geometrical path ..

what i discovered is it almost seems like weight could spend more
time on one side than the other during movement through
this geometrical forms , i could be incorrect with this assumtion ..

it seems bessler was looking for some path in geometrical form
that could bring about something , perhaps more one side than the other.

i am able to prove these geometrical paths but what good it does
i am not sure , the pentagram also contains the pentagonal on the insidr,
the geometrical shapes are only possible through precise controll.

mt 137s geometry also has a square on the inside , all these geometrical shapes
are possible to achieve through the path traced by using this simple formulae or rules , but what is important about such a path ?

i also found a way to bring a lever COM closer to the axle and then farther away
where i chose to do so but not tested this , only an idea
as of yet ..

edit for clarity: the geometrical forms i am discussing was achieved by the
paths traced by my levers on a wheel (not physical yet but simulated)

[ovaron]

Another explanation for the pentagram and the second E, which he has gained in the additional name Ernst.
As you know, Bessler spent some time in Prague and probably heard the legend of the Prague golem there. The golem was a clay-created figure brought to life through an amulet, a pentagram, bearing the Hebrew word for truth (phonetically EMETh). He was inactivated by removing the first letter of the word EMETh. (METh = death)
Could it be that Bessler refers to this legend?