How can adding more mechanisms increase rpm and power ?

[Fletcher]

James .. if that were true I'd have accumulated a mass of red dots by now.

Many, myself included, have tried various liquid inspired wheels. To no avail because for buoyancy force to manifest more mass must descend, in a nut shell.

That doesn't mean it is a dead end because as you say there is siphon effect and buoyancy is still a legitimate force. Just nobody has got one to work.

This thread is primarily about exploring Bessler's lesson plans and pointers in MT. I try to stay focused on what those parts and relationships might be.

I have no room to deviate to Non-Bessler type wheels. I've tried many of my own creation. It is hard enough following him thru AP and MT without 'winging it' in the hope of getting lucky. That has never worked for anyone here, past or present.

I am building a foundation of necessary parts and actions before looking for a particular movement. I welcome discussion on this process as it evolves, that might shed light on what was special at each lesson. Everyone has the ability to show insight where others haven't seen it. Whether they chose to participate or continue to covert information as has happened historically is for them to decide.

[Art]

Quote -"The next one of importance is MT18 - what could be so good about it when it doesn't work. It has flexible arms (elastic tension) that bend and straighten.

What does it 'tell' more than 'show' ? "

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What it "telled" me when I fiddled with this type of mechanism is that MT18 runs Anticlockwise better than Clockwise !

One of my standard tests for any mechanism is to look at clockwise versus anticlockwise performance where possible .

I find that most mechanisms , that don't entail a frictional loss of energy which is rotation dependant , make no difference to the energy of rotation of the wheel in either direction .

IMO when I discover a mechanism that gives different results Clockwise Vs Anticlockwise (and doesn't have rotation dependant friction ) then I shall be cracking open a bottle : ) )

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Excellent thread Fletcher - keep up the good work

[ovyyus]

This thread is primarily about exploring Bessler's lesson plans and pointers in MT...

The lessons in MT appear all about the cart, its efficiency and form, etc. There are no lessons about the horse, with the exception of a few vague hints that there must be one, eg;

"No. 15: This ratchet-wheel derives from the previous model, except that the tensions are somewhat longer and have an additional special weight at the external ends. From this drawing alone, however, nothing of the prime mover's source can be seen or deduced although the figure shows the superior weight."

Bessler's cart lessons seem useless without horse lessons. Carts don't drive carts.

[james.lindgard]

James .. if that were true I'd have accumulated a mass of red dots by now.

Many, myself included, have tried various liquid inspired wheels. To no avail because for buoyancy force to manifest more mass must descend, in a nut shell.

That doesn't mean it is a dead end because as you say there is siphon effect and buoyancy is still a legitimate force. Just nobody has got one to work.

This thread is primarily about exploring Bessler's lesson plans and pointers in MT. I try to stay focused on what those parts and relationships might be.

I have no room to deviate to Non-Bessler type wheels. I've tried many of my own creation. It is hard enough following him thru AP and MT without 'winging it' in the hope of getting lucky. That has never worked for anyone here, past or present.

I am building a foundation of necessary parts and actions before looking for a particular movement. I welcome discussion on this process as it evolves, that might shed light on what was special at each lesson. Everyone has the ability to show insight where others haven't seen it. Whether they chose to participate or continue to covert information as has happened historically is for them to decide.

Fletcher,
Your post was nothing but sugar candy to a Bessler enthuist such as myself.
It does take time for words to become a manifest reality.

Edited to correct spelling

[daxwc]

Fletcher:

Whether they chose to participate or continue to covert information as has happened historically is for them to decide.

I will do both since I have no working wheel and it is funny how human nature ignores the facts while invested elsewhere, which is probably the real cause of member’s apathy.


My interpretation of the clues as Bessler wished conveyed.
MT 18 – A drum is needed
MT 11 – A system within a system
MT 24 - A spring arm into the third plane
MT 25 – Lesson on being connected
MT 141- Clues to the prime mover

How would a drum be an advantage other than the flywheel effect (energy storage)?

“Wagner describes how he thinks my machine is constructed; he
babbles about "excess weights" being snatched along, by means of
"internal motive power", in a frequently-repeated cycle of up and
down movements. According to him, Nature dictates that things
gravitate downwards. But the weights which rest below must, in a
flash, be raised upwards, and it is this that Wagner cannot force
himself to accept.�

[ovyyus]

ALL things revolved around inside the wheel with nothing hanging from the axle acting as an artificial horizon to leverage off...

A paternoster hanging from the axle also revolves around with the wheel.

MT48 shows a paternoster hanging from the axle of a wheel. Bessler suggests the principle is good, and that it just needs his add-on (horse) to give it mobility.

"No. 48: This is a sphere invention having a paternoster with pockets. A is a wheel. As the pocket-patemoster C raises the spheres, it passes over B, the axle of the wheel. At D the spheres are ejected into a channel. At E the spheres fall into the wheel, and at F they are ejected again into the paternoster. Here, an insufficient number of spheres is carried to the wheel A by means of the paternoster. The principle is good, but this figure will bring about no mobility by itself until completely different, additional structures have been provided."

Perhaps a similar paternoster (endless chain) was freely hanging from the axle inside Bessler's wheel, catching weights at the bottom and lifting them up (in a figurative flash) to the axle? The wheel would be very empty with only a lightweight structure required (low mass = fast acceleration)... full on one side, empty on the other...

Just need horse lessons.

[Mark]

Just need horse lessons.

No stables here. I think Orffyreana has 'em, but every time I go over there the gate's locked.
:-(

[daxwc]

Ovyyus:

Perhaps a similar paternoster (endless chain) was freely hanging from the axle inside Bessler's wheel, catching weights at the bottom and lifting them up (in a figurative flash) to the axle? The wheel would be very empty with only a lightweight structure required (low mass = fast acceleration)... full on one side, empty on the other...

Maybe another alternative of “the principle is good, but this figure will bring about no mobility by itself until completely different, additional structures have been provided" could be that the weights have to remain in that quadrant and the rest of the wheel is empty but to do this requires a totally different design.

[jim_mich]

From back on page three...

"all the inmost parts, and the perpetual-motion structures, retain the power of free movement, as I've been saying since 1712." - AP pg 295

Sometimes the people translating Bessler's writing fail to fully understand his meaning. The translated words are close to what Bessler wrote, but subtle meanings are lost in the translations.

One such case, taken from JC's translation of AP, part one, chapter 43:

Then let them come and sit down by me,
and my wheel shall openly revolve for them. I've nothing to hide,
for all the inmost parts,
and the perpetual-motion structures,
retain the power of free movement,
as I've been saying since 1712.

Note that I've split this into six lines of text, so as to compare them with the original six line of German text.

Code: Select all

Alsdann so sitze er dabei;         | Then so sit he there;
Das Werk sol lauffen ohne Scheu.   | The work such runs without hesitation.
Denn alle innere Figuren,          | because all inner parts,
Perpetuirliche Structuren,         | perpetual-like structure,
Behalten ihre freie Jagt,          | Keep their free hunt,
Wie Anno 12 ich schon gesagt;      | Like year 1712 I already said;

JC's translation says "Then let them come ...", as if Bessler was writing about a number of people. But the original text was addressed to a doubting-lion, it was addressed to Wagner. Bessler used the word "er", which means "he"

The phrase "ohne Scheu" can be translated using a number of different English phrases:
without fear, fearlessly, without shame, without shyness, without hesitation

Since this phrase is in reference to a wheel, and since wheels don't have emotions, I would not describe the wheel using emotional words such as fear, shame, or shyness. This leaves the English word "hesitation" as the most appropriate, since a mechanical wheel can hesitate, or it can rotate without hesitation.

Saying that the "such runs without hesitation" gives the phase a more informative and accurate meaning than saying, "my wheel shall openly revolve for them. I've nothing to hide,"

In the third and fourth lines, JC's translation inserts the words "and the". Adding these words makes it seem like the wheel has inner most parts and separate perpetual motion structures. Bessler original simply clarifies that the inner parts are the perpetual motion structure. Bessler used the compound word "Perpetuirliche", which means perpetual-like. A more anglicized translation would be "Because all inner parts of a perpetual type structure," This would make it clear that all the inner parts are the PM structure.

In the fifth line, JC's translation says "retain the power of free movement". The original makes no mention of "power". The phrase "freie Jagt" is the thing that is retained or kept. The German word "Jagt" means to hunt or to chase.

Putting all this together, Bessler is saying that his PM wheel runs without hesitation, because all the inner parts of the PM type structure keep their free hunting. This is slightly different than saying "retain the power of free movement"

Note that mechanical devices are sometimes described as hunting.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_oscillation

Elsewhere Bessler writes about the weights seeking but never finding equilibrium positions of rest.

[Sam Peppiatt]

oldNick, If you are there. Looks like the "lifters" HAVE to pivot on the center line, of the wheel. Sam

[oldNick]

Sam,

What you have written sounds correct as per my picture! both the lifters would move the slider in the same direction (Shortening the lever length required) and they only move 90 degrees.

[Sam Peppiatt]

oldNick, No--------- Imagine one slider for simplicity, with the slider more or less vertical and down. one lifter, or 4 to 1 lever, will raise it back up. When it rotates 180 degrees a second lifter is needed to again lift it up. If there is only one lever it will first lift at @ the 7 O'clock position which is good but when the wheel rotates 180 degrees it will lift at @ the 5 O'clock position, which makes the wheel want to turn the other way.
You are right about MT-123. I have looked at it dozens of times. But never clicked on it. It does give the right idea. Imagine that the rack is the slider but in a vertical position, the weighted lever / pinion would fall down and raise the slider up. My levers aren't on the center line and mess things up.
Some how they have to pivot on the center line. Sam Peppiatt

Live Your Days Inspired Anew, LYDIA.

[spinner361]

I believe that more than one mechanism is used in order to reset the movement in a rotation, but I think it may be best to use just enough and not any more. Too many just absorbs energy unnecessarily. All of that stuff has to get around every rotation, or at least some of it does. At the very least the outer shell and the axle do.

[spinner361]

RPMs and power may be inversely proportional, where you get one or the other. A minimum speed is required. It is about angles and leverage, and more leverage has more torque but less speed. It would be weird to get both at the same time but really cool.

[Fcdriver]

A slider takes force to accelerate it back and forth, accelerating it quickly takes a lot of force. It is much easier to use that effort at a slow and easy pace, rather than a quick acceleration. The fastest moving item has to be the dropping motion, and it has to only accelerate the movement of the wheel. F=MA. Everything else HAS to be moving slower, the slower the lift, the less force. The lift is provided by the wheels movement,near center, the drop force causes the wheel movement, further from center.