Kreuz?

[Fletcher]

Hi Oystein .. most of my best ideas involve a beer. Some of my worst ones too ;)

I am very pleased to hear that you feel you and your work would ultimately benefit from a 'working' Bessler Gravity Wheel being made known to the public. That means you are secure in your knowledge and don't feel threatened by that prospect. Failing a 'working' wheel, a simple cogent design easily able to be understood would go almost as far I'd wager, altho it doesn't trump it.

Either or, would perhaps go a very long way to vindicating Bessler and his claims, which I think is an important objective for many of us, if we were able to do so.

I am also pleased that you feel you have the basic motive principle. That would be icing on the cake and well justified. I very much look forward to reading your "5:3 Preponderance and the ancient problem of Perpetual Motion" thread you just started, as you direct and develop it further.

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 035#169035

[WaltzCee]

I decided to bump up the thread on top of the Chinese spam that was just added to the
Forum. The reason is to make a scratch pad where people could share their ideas about
Oystein's new thread, putting the noise here. That way his new thread could stay as
coherent and on topic as possible.

Random thoughts
Meno's paradox: did you learn it, or is it innate excludes other possibilities.

I went to your webpage that's on your signature Oystein and was wondering how I could go
about getting a copy of your first book.

Our ideas seem to be converging. You claim you're getting clues from Bessler's writings,
however I think you're reading my mail! :-) I think people should be credited for their ideas.
If my opinion is true, then you are a virtuous soul.

Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is Sound Advice. We are all in the
same boat, no one knowing how to make a working wheel. It looks to me like you're
jumping out of the boat trying to take a swim. May you be an expert swimmer.

Sharks!

[ME]

Be that coincidence or not ME. I think not in the main. He's attempted to use the scientific principle (minimise confirmation bias) and cross-check and double check, find correlations and corroborating evidence, and other examples outside of Bessler's works to show at the very least a trend or common thread of secret/uncommon engagement.

Look closer and those scientific principles become seriously vague. Hope you know that correlation does not imply causation. [For example: url:National Geographics]
When Bessler is being marked by association, it shouldn't be hard to find correlation between the common practices of those days. As such the "evidence" and "confirmation" is just circular reasoning. It only looks double- and cross-checked.
Sure, maybe there is something Rosicrucian stuff to be found. But then 'Bessler being a Rosicrucian' should be an end-conclusion, and not the assumed premise to start with.
It would be all fine when Bessler's wheel was about Rosicrucianism... (is it actually?)

That's what I think at least.
# Nevertheless I agree that the outcome might still show some interesting correlated stuff.

Why couldn't he be a Rosicrucian?

Why do you want him to be one, is this an RC advertisement?
He sure could be. It's just not relevant.

But on the other hand if I show you that it seems like Bessler show us a special tool, it would mean that it is possible that YOU can draw that tool into a wheel and search on your own for a solution. If Bessler meant that the astronomical "Kreuz" is a part of the "Special handle construction" it would be bad if we dismissed it being drawn by Bessler, right in front of us.

Bessler shows us many things...
The tool you show is possibly related to the Rosicrucian; but Absolutely related to astrological surveillance; and already clearly visible as shown by Bessler himself in Bessler's portrait.
We can assume that discovered cross thingies might be possible a Jacob's staff depiction. Yet to see and to recognize something drawn as an actual Jacob's staff we need some more properties than just a 'Kreuz'.
My main question remains, does applying apparently not-so-secret secret knowledge bring us anything closer to a wheel as Bessler described and intended or does this "knowledge" drag us more into the abyss of secrecy?

When we find, for example, a Jacob's staff in Bessler's drawings (or writings perhaps), and we find associated properties to confirm that it is indeed a Jacob's staff, then we can use that information to find if and how it points at new exciting new information!
But from that point onward it does not actually matter if that should (also) proof he's a Rosicrucian, a Star-gazer or a Vegetarian.
Unless you want to proof he is a Rosicrucian, but thanks to circular reasoning that was already determined by association.
My point is that we could give credit to -and use the geometric stuff directly from- the original thinkers like Pythagoras, Aristotle and Euclid. They didn't work for the sake of- some Rosicrucian-, Freemason-, Catholic-, or some similar convoluted cult. When it so happens to correlate somewhere then we can always select the most appropriate cult.

# When your theory holds any water in a practical sense (in this case: PMM) then your information should cut like a hot knife trough butter right to the heart of things.
At least, that's what I think.

It's still possible Bessler just misused a long sought after possible significant discovery [PMM] and faked it to hide a possible other 'secret' [RC] - but what would that say about his whole endevour? Only a multi-level "Greed is an evil root"?
But Bessler warned us already. Literally.
-

And a man who is puzzled and wonders thinks himself ignorant (whence even the lover of myth is in a sense a lover of Wisdom, for the myth is composed of wonders); therefore since they philosophized Order to escape from Ignorance, evidently they were pursuing Science in order to know, and not for any Utilitarian end.
And this is confirmed by the facts; for it was when almost all the necessities of life and the things that make for comfort and recreation had been secured, that such knowledge began to be sought.
Evidently then we do not seek it for the sake of any other advantage; but as the man is free, we say, who exists for his own sake and not for another’s, so we pursue this as the only free science, for it alone exists for its own sake.

The TL;DR; hashtag-summary:
# Nevertheless I agree that the outcome might still show some interesting correlated stuff.
# When your theory holds any water in a practical sense (in this case: PMM) then your information should cut like a hot knife trough butter right to the heart of things.

[Senax]

delete

[Senax]

Why couldn't he be a Rosicrucian?

Why do you want him to be one, is this an RC advertisement?
He sure could be. It's just not relevant.

I think the fact he sold his soul to the Devil is very relevant.

[ME]

The obvious questions:
1. How is that a fact;
2. What does that even mean;
3. How is that (or what makes it) relevant.

[Fletcher]

Of course it's not fact. It's Frank's opinion. Because it can't be proven.

Never-the-less Frank's opinion may have some relevance to, and bearing on, the story, imo.

I won't go into the gory details (that's for Oystein to show if he chooses to) but I can loosely paraphrase it this way without treading on his intellectual property.

Bessler writes about the devil (different spellings etc) and the devils number. He even leaves blanks in the prose etc. Oystein purportedly found that numbered drawing in MT and proposed a trail leading to it using the techniques he has previously discussed as uncommon knowledge albeit to a few orders over the ages. Even well before BCE.

The upshot in regards to MT is that many would instinctively think that MT13 would be a prime candidate for a devils number, just from superstition and lore alone. But it is not the one identified ! But by probable design and perchance no small amount of irony it does point back to MT13 anyways.

As we know MT13 is the first CCW wheel and has the lettering reversed. Yet the number box is on the left as for MT14 below on the same page. The reversing of the woodcut printing could be a mistake that was never corrected but that seems a low percentage shot since B. had it in his possession for years and years, and if Oystein is to be believed B. hid many forms of geometrical information in his woodcuts as he is currently proposing. Besides B. carved in the number 13 the correct way and it is obviously so. So to a casual observer like a n00b apprentice it could be just a simple error, give it no more thought. For someone else there might be more to it.

MT15 is the next which is CCW. It has no lettering but is the one and only time the Prime Mover is mentioned. That thing which provides the vis viva (living force). Power of sustained never-tiring rotation.

The next CCW mech/wheel is MT113. The last in a series of 4 on that one page. It is upside down, missing a weighted lever arm on the ascending side (when turned right way up) as Oystein shows in his 'preponderance thread'. But when right side up it turns CCW like MT's 15 and 13. At first glance the letters are reversed like 13 except for the A which is upside down. Could there be a connection in some way ?

Well, I think it was Rocky a long time ago that first postulated that if you take 13 and add 100 for the number of builds B. did you get 113. My apologies if I have misquoted here. So there is some sort of connection, tenuous or not, deliberate or not. You have to decide. We know all 3 are connected because they are CCW rotating when viewed standing the correct way up. But perhaps the mirroring/reversing of MT13 and upside-downness of MT113 have other message conveying purposes than the obvious that even a n00b could spot ?

Anyways, back to the relevance and Frank's opinion of B. selling his soul to the Devil etc.

I think I originally read it in JC's books many years ago. No time to search it right now and confirm it but will carry on anyways. Bessler was a God-fearing pious man who attributed his ultimate PM success (the PM principle) to a dream from God. After it worked he was in a bit of a quandary. Only God could bestow life (vis viva) to objects. Inanimate objects remained inanimate objects unless God's breath blew upon them. So if he Bessler could bestow vis viva on a previously inanimate object to give it sustained never-ending rotational movement he could be in a bit of a theological bind. He wasn't vying for God's job but maybe others wouldn't see it that way ? And would they think that made him a bad Christian and in league with the devil ? Well Frank thinks so.

And so for some reason B. organised MT and his books to reveal a theological duopoly to his PM Principles vis viva. Possibly he couldn't be entirely sure who was pulling his strings because he seemed to have strayed into what was firmly Gods exclusive realm and way above his pay grade ?

These are my opinions on the subject.

[Oystein]

You may do a Google search for "Death Devil and 1513"

It is correct that MT 15 and 13 moves backwards..counterclockwise ...time?

Now Fletcher knows what I believe those numbers to be.. by more than a hunch. There is a thing called Tarot (as in "a seer sees") and that was one of RC's astrological tools to predict the future, (along with an astronomical "Kreuz") .. this Albert guy should know..Elias should know.. both mathematicians..Albert even a great one! Then there is the thing that Euclid's elements did at Bessler's time have 15 books, but two of them was not attributed to Euclid, so 13 of them was the originals..

I think MT 15 and 13 has removed the inner "principle piece" so a special figure must be found.. a special devil inside the machine... but of course a real living devil it's not.. so how does a non living devil look like?? ..something about Tarot..something about a scissorjack..?


Best
ØR



Footnote - My general thoughts about such matters
Please don't let me lead you astray.. I encourage you all to use all information for your own objective benefit. Of a certain intelligence your mind will easily know what to do with it and how and where to store it. It shouldn't matter if someone else confirms this or that for you, not even a working machine. For what would it change in this context? Nothing.. (some respect) but still, new evidence will be rejected before someone else or many of higher rank confirms it. Who dares to be the first then? We are better of storing and handling new information our selves..People in general have a very hard time changing their belief or professional view ref. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmelweis_reflex Our mind has expanding storage and trainable intelligence. Just fill it up, challenge and expand.. If it is just slightly possible that Bessler knew, applied and defended his position and secrets by Rosicrucian means, we or at least some of us must at some time do our absolute greatest effort to explore that.. And a half hearted work and conclusion would be the worst of all! The fact that no one has done that job before does not mean that all that isn't seeing it has any merit. "Lack of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence". I have made a name for this kind of knowledge: Using the lack of evidence as knowledge and then fact as: Negative knowledge". If we build new scientific conclusions upon negative knowledge we are at some time in the future destined to end up in trouble.

[Senax]

The obvious questions:
1. How is that a fact;
2. What does that even mean;
3. How is that (or what makes it) relevant.

Don't you believe in the devil ME?
I'm sure your Italian ancestors did.

[Senax]

dt

[ovyyus]

Don't you believe in the devil ME?
I'm sure your Italian ancestors did.

Being fooled by Zeus and Apollo for all that time sure taught them a lesson.

[Senax]

You're a terrible cynic, Bill.

What do you believe in?

Presumably you believe in Bessler or you wouldn't have done such much
work in his honour. Your picture of him suggests you are his disciple.
Does it hang in your living room?

[ovyyus]

Frank, don't get fooled again.

[WaltzCee]

You're a terrible cynic, Bill.

I disagree. I think Ovy is an excellent cynic.

[gravityman52]

The basic principle can easily be seen in Besslers notes.... more weight on one side that the other.