MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher I am posting this Algodoo simulation as a kind of curiosity really because to be honest I don’t know what to make of it.

This isn’t the one I mentioned earlier because I’m still working on that one and I don’t know what to make of that one either lol. I’m posting this because it has a type of one way action and because it was easier for me to do.

It picks up speed in Algodoo but once again I was not able to make it in WM2D because I cant get it to work properly in WM2D.

One of the curious things about it is that it appears to be the impacts that makes it go faster.

The orange weight is a counter weight and so far attempts to put 2 mechanisms on it haven’t worked out well and it seems to be difficult to make it work better.

I will be posting it on my thread too just for reasons of continuity.

It would be nice to get your thoughts on this good or bad.

Graham

[Fletcher]

Hi Graham ..

Answered in your Topic ..

[Fletcher]

OK .. moving along ..

Bessler had some problems ..

From the young age of 22 he spent 10 years searching for a mechanical solution to a gravity PM wheel, until he found it and built his first working prototype - this was essentially a proof of concept prototype that as far as we know was never shown to anybody else - from that initial success he quickly built a new more powerful version of a vertical one-way wheel, and subsequent ones ( one-way and bidirectional ) for public display - protection of his intellectual property was an major issue for him so these latter wheels were covered-in disks rotating on anchored axle supports - all mechanical workings for these latter wheels were fully enclosed ( self-contained ) within the "covered disk / shell" - however it is not known whether all the mechanics of his very first prototype were also fully enclosed within the disk, or some sat outside of it - this can not be automatically assumed because there is no evidence either way ..

From that young age B. had to learn a lot of practical hands-on skills and also continue learning many esoteric knowledge based skills - all the while with extreme diligence and industry searching for and finding the mechanical solution to a gravity PM wheel - when he found his solution he later said it was extremely simple, which was confirmed by his patron Karl ..

Now I apply some psychology ..

The mechanical solution was extremely simple - it took B. 10 years to unearth it - he tried to sell his intellectual property rights for his solution but couldn't get a buyer - he wrote various books about his life and his pursuit of his solution to a gravity PM wheel - but imo he was plagued by the fact that it was so simple - so he imbedded into his books his esoteric knowledge to increase the appeal to others of his learned persuasion, essentially to buffer the dullness of his mechanical solution - this included various ciphers and codes etc - however in my mind, while interesting diversions and creating an "interest factor" to spice up the story ( greater marketability ), I don't hold out great hope that they will reveal a definitive mechanism or the detail of his mechanical solution to PM - so far I believe this is still a reasonable presumption .. however, B. like the rest of us, is wired to recognize "patterns" in most things, and can not avoid them - he seemed to have a insatiable need to indulge in and hide sacred geometry and Freemasonry references in his writings, including chronograms etc ..

So, he was an intelligent, educated, and driven man, some would see as eccentric at some levels - who had a massive problem of a mechanical solution to gravity PM that was just too damn simple ! ..

When I come back I'll introduce his religious beliefs and influences into the overlay and head back into MT to delve deeper ..

[Fletcher]

Bessler was a self-professed Christian and believer - it was important to him, and he credited God for the divine inspiration leading to his PM discovery - his religion appeared to influence his daily life, his world view, and set his moral compass to a large degree ..

Therefore, imo, it is not surprising that his various writings, and contexts within etc, should include a strong slant towards his religious beliefs ..

With this heady religious overlay, and the potential for eccentricity above in mind, they suggest to me propensities for behaviour - that he could not avoid anymore than we could, and would show up in his writings etc to one degree or another .. we are afterall products of our nature and nurture ..

In John Collins MT B. tells us to find and investigate various illustrations that when combined will reveal a motion and a movement of interest in our search for PM - he does not spoon feed us which illustrations because that would give the game away far to quickly and easily .. we have to work for it and sort wheat from chaff .. but our profile above can perhaps help us see some "tells" and reduce the work load imo ..

More when I come back ..

[Fletcher]

While it's tempting to delve further into psychoanalyzing B. I don't think it is worth it, and I am no professional "profiler" - suffice it to say that I believe that he was a complex man with a simple solution he needed to hide for as long as possible - that being said, he had already in AP credited his Christian God with the inspiration to the answer / solution, and his religious beliefs quite obviously framed and shaped his life and actions - therefore it seems reasonable to me that his beliefs should also filter down into his MT disclosure process ..

..................

MT .. just basics ..

MT9 .. B. tells us nothing can be accomplished without his ( zusammen gehangten - hung together ) principle ..

MT10 .. B. tells us there is a correct-handle construction to be had, not shown ..

He also says both MT's 9 and 10 are essentially the same thing ..

MT13 .. many of us, including me, feel that MT13 is an important illustration ..13 is in some circumstances a significant number for Christianity - i.e. representing the 12 disciples plus Jesus at the last supper ..

Further .. it is the 1st of 2 clearly CCW illustrations in MT - the lettering is backwards but the number box and writing is the correct direction showing it was carved and printed this way deliberately ..

I suggest that it shows / discloses ideologically all the main components for a runner - an OOB "handle" system which hangs down, with a restricted movement; and a central pendulum like figure ( n.b. wrt pendulums shown in the DT engravings ) - in this case an artificial horizon format, with lifting wheel - however, B. tells us plainly that it is useless as a self-moving runner as it has too much friction, and unless someone were there to lift the weights up at D. it is not a runner - but just perhaps these were ideologically the basic mechanical elements of his first prototype, only deployed differently in his very first runner to that shown in MT13 ..

MT15 .. the 2nd clearly CCW illustration - number box and writing also the correct direction - no lettering ..

Here B. shows us 3 combined OOB systems that clearly need restorative lifting, as did the weights in MT13 - he instructs us that nothing of the prime movers source can be seen or deduced i.e. there is a missing prime mover structure / apparatus, not shown ..

The significant similarities between MT13 and MT15 imo is that they both show potentially a superior OOB shifting weights arrangement, provided that the weights in each can be lifted to restore GPE and maintain a displaced CoM i.e. net positive torque to accelerate a wheel as per a runner ..

The significant difference between MT13 and MT15 imo is that MT15 does not have the central hanging "lifter" artificial horizon / pendulum structure of MT13 .. and we know the prime mover is missing from MT15 because B. says so, therefore connecting the dots, the prime mover is ? ..

More tomorrow, or when time allows ..

[Fletcher]

Pics to add some flesh to the bones of my first tranche about MT ..

[Fletcher]

Here's the original CCW MT13 with the curious backwards lettering ..

[johannesbender]

@General , I remember this particular image of a combination of MT13 MT15 and such from searches around on google time to time , https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2517 .

To be honest the heavy weight of MT13 seems fitting for the design of the levers in MT15 which are similar like those in MT13 , and perhaps it was meant to be like that , perhaps that is exactly what the excluded "prime mover" was , because Bessler usually does more than one version of a concept here and there likely to see if he can remedy them , i suspect Bessler also knew in hind sight that there was no remedy to apply that would make "a runner" from them .

[daxwc]

JB: …perhaps that is exactly what the excluded "prime mover" was , because Bessler usually does more than one version of a concept here and there likely to see if he can remedy them ,…

I don’t see it that way. MT 12 is pushing the rods in. MT 13 is pushing the rods out. MT 14 is trying to lift the rods out. From there it gets into more complicated ideas on moving the rods.

Fletcher: Further .. it is the 1st of 2 clearly CCW illustrations in MT - the lettering is backwards but the number box and writing is the correct direction showing it was carved and printed this way deliberately ..

Yes it is not a mirrored image. It is just rotated 180 degrees. Maybe suggesting an inverted pendulum that recovers itself. The artificial horizon/ballast somehow oscillates in the top fifth.

[daxwc]

In Foucault pendulum the base is stationary. What happens when it is on wheels with cogs which only allow base direction one way; at the same time spin of the pendulum is added in on another frame of rotation. Earth’s rotation wouldn’t affect it since there’s intermittent connection to our planet. That is what the cogs on the wheels are for. Since the pendulum is spinning the base will slowly rotate in a circle. Earth spinning in one circle the pendulum rotating the other. Cogs pick up and grounding (add energy back into the system).

Copilot:
Thank you for the detailed description! Let’s explore this intriguing scenario:

1. Detached Base:
o Imagine a Foucault pendulum with a base mounted on wheels and cogs.
o These cogs allow movement in only one direction, effectively detaching the base from Earth’s rotation.

2. Pendulum Spin:
o The pendulum itself spins (angular momentum) independently of Earth’s rotation.
o This spin introduces an additional rotational component.

3. Combined Motion:
o As Earth spins, the pendulum base will slowly rotate in a circle (opposite to Earth’s rotation).
o Simultaneously, the pendulum oscillates back and forth.

4. Energy Exchange:
o The cogs pick up energy from the ground, adding it back into the system.
o Energy conservation ensures that the total energy remains constant.

5. Observation:
o If practically achievable, this system would exhibit mesmerizing motion—Earth spinning in one circle, the pendulum rotating in another.

6. Challenges:
o Overcoming practical limitations (air resistance, external forces) would be necessary.


In summary, while we can’t fully detach from Earth, pondering such scenarios enriches our understanding of physics and the universe.

[daxwc]

Not sure you understand me there is a base with wheels with cogs that will only allow movement forwards. On top of that base is another platform with wheel that allow only movement circular in one direction. Fixed to the top platform is the Foulcault Pendulum.

Copilot
My apologies for misunderstanding earlier! Thank you for clarifying. Let’s delve into this intriguing setup:

Configuration:
We have a base with wheels and cogs that allow only forward movement.
On top of this base, there’s another platform with wheels that permit only circular motion.
Fixed to the top platform is the Foucault Pendulum.

Combined Motion:
As Earth rotates, the base will slowly rotate in a circle (opposite to Earth’s rotation) due to the wheels and cogs.
Simultaneously, the pendulum oscillates back and forth.
The circular motion of the top platform adds an interesting twist.

Energy Exchange:
The cogs pick up energy from the ground, maintaining the system’s motion.
Energy conservation ensures that the total energy remains constant.

Observation:
If practically realized, this system would exhibit mesmerizing and complex motion—Earth spinning, the base rotating, and the pendulum swinging.

Challenges:
Achieving this setup would require precise engineering and overcoming practical limitations.

Sorry for interrupting the conversation. If an effect can be found then it can be manipulated differently.

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher I thought I would add a few thoughts of my own to the questions you raise.

There are a number of possibilities as to how and why MT13 ended up the way it was presented.

I don’t believe it has been rotated 180 degrees. If it had been and it is an A on the pendulum then the A would be upside down.

He did apparently carve it that way on purpose but he may have :-

1) Simply made a mistake when he did it.

2) It may have been carved by someone else who made a mistake.

3) It may have been carved to look at but not originally for printing and as a clockwise wheel and had the 13 added later.

4) He could have done it as a clue in which case I would suggest that its the A that stands out and may be the shape of a mechanism. This is an Idea I have played with for some time now and I have made some interesting wheels and mechanism’s using A’s. The A is the only one that doesn’t change when you flip the image horizontally.

There can be some significance with the number 13.

Even way before Besslers time it was regarded as unlucky in certain areas of the world.

Bessler was religious and Judas was the 13th person to attend the Last Supper and then went on to betray Jesus.

I don’t understand why the C’s are crooked.

It makes sense that a lot of the wheels presented run clockwise. Bessler was a clock maker and would probably think clockwise most of the time. Personally I don’t like running wheels the other way.

In his description he actually gives us a very important clue. I’m sure this will have been pointed out by other people but he actually tells us what his interpretation of free movement is.

Could it be that the weights on his actually machine had this kind of free movement?

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Sorry Fletcher I just realized you mentioned the Last Supper.

Graham

[Fletcher]

Thanks fellas for the thoughtful comments ..

Let me add to my previous musings and theory, in good time - at this moment I would like to acknowledge and respond to what has been said above ..

First thanking you jb for the link to Chad's interesting Topic ( "re: Bessler wheel principle solved? " ) and thread discussion from 2008 ..

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2517

I had not seen that particular Topic and discussion previously, and had somehow missed it and its 'bumping up' over a few years ..

I think Chad did a pretty good job at arriving at MT13 as standout important, and linking it to MT15 etc .. especially also identifying the central hanging pendulum ( AH or ballast ) as the likely prime mover etc etc .. unfortunately I don't support his final thoughts on how it was supposed to work in his theory and the build he was undertaking, as others like KAS thoroughly explained ..

fwiw - MT13 has been considered from time to time by many members over the years as a seminal illustration of importance in MT, and somehow critical to finding B's. final mechanical solution to his PM Principle and series of self-moving display wheels - if we only knew or could deduce when and how it was used ..

As I go on I would like to pick from some of the others contributions to Chad's thread because they closely echo my own thoughts on certain matters, tho probably more put more logically ..

.............

[Fletcher]

The following are snipped quotes from our old friend "Greendoor" who was active back in March 2009 - I think they are worth reading again as we ponder these MT's and MT again ..

... However - I believe Bessler found a design that works. I have my own theory about how it worked, which i'm still refining. I've decided not to publish my full theory until I have an easily replicated, simple, cheap design. I'm not a good builder - but I take comfort that a "carpenters boy" could knock one up, and any design I publish will be very crude and easy to make.

Assuming i'm on the right track - YES - I believe Bessler's wheel ran directly from the force of gravity. Gravity provides the acceleration to the masses. There is a trick, but it does not violate Newtonian physics. It requires some lateral thinking, which is why I think it's been missed for so long.

... What i'm really trying to say is that I see the prime-mover mechanism as being separate from the wheel itself ... "a wheel appears ...". If we don't have to hide this mechanism inside a covered wheel, perhaps it could be outside the wheel, used as an elevator and we have mass (whether solid mass or perhaps water) spilling out the top and onto an ordinary wheel that is no different from a water wheel.

I could also be very wrong, and perhaps Bessler found a way of incorporating the prime-mover directly into the wheel itself. That seems to be the only view being explored here, but i'm taking a very different view based on my theory of how to extract free energy from gravity.