Osama's Message to America!

[rmd3]

I think the day for peace will come when the Isreali side gets tired of fighting for an impossible dream - namely building walls, misappropriating property, bulldozing houses whilst kill peaceful protestors (anyone remember the American college student: Rachel Corrie - www.rachelcorrie.org), kill Palestinians (and now Lebanonese) all the while thinking nobody would care under the guise of "defense".

Check this link out: Isreali children signing bombs intended for Lebanon. http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2006/07/h ... ciety.html

Let's see if it makes it on CNN.

[ovyyus]

IMO, each deserves the other.

[scott]

Exactly right Bill.

Too bad we can't find perpetual motion. We seem to have no trouble finding perpetual violence.

- Scott

[ken_behrendt]

The situation over in Lebanon seems to be heating up substantially.

Since I last posted here, Israel Defense Forces have entered southern Lebanon and are beginning to encounter increasing resistance from Hezbollah guerillas there.

The leader of the Hezbollah has declared that his group will fight to the last man to expel the Israeli's. Since he only has about 5 to 6 thousands fighters, it should not take the heavily armed Israeli long to finish them off. The major problem now for the Israeli's is going to be destroying the approximately 10,000 missiles that Hezbollah got from Syria and Iran before they can be launched at their military forces or towns in northern Israel.

Quite disturbing was that the official Lebanese government just stated that they are going to use their army to fight alongside the Hezbollah against the Israeli invasion force! I guess that shows us all just how "committed" the Lebanese government was all along to eliminating the militant / terrorist arm of Hezbollah!


It looks like this conflict will be raging for several more weeks to over a month with escalating violence on both sides. This could be the beginning of a major Middle Eastern war. Now it seems that much will depend upon what Syria is going to do while all of this is going on.

Will they join in the fight against Israel?

I suspect not, even though they will see an Israel victory spell the end of their dominance over Lebanon. Like the Iranians, the Syrians are busily at work, most likely, on their own missile, possibly nuclear weapons, programs. They can not afford to risk a major confrontation with Israel's Western allies at this time. I expect them, as well as Iran, to just sit on the sidelines and use this to generate contempt for Israel in the Arab world while pretending that they have no involvement in the matter. Both greatly underestimated the reaction of Israel, this time, to the kidnapping of its soldiers.


I think that we will see a mini-Iraq type situation finally develop in Lebanon. Israel, with the help of the West, will install a "provisional" democratic government in Beirut and beginning training an internal police force to mop up any remaining militants not killed off in the current invasion.

This is definitely shaping up to be a major turning point in the geopolitics of the region.



ken

[bluesgtr44]

rmd3...

1. Where you sit...is where you stand.

Just think about that....oh, most people do not convince very easily from where they sit or stand...some would call it a form of "self preservation"


Steve

[rmd3]

Steve,

I gotcha, I think. Check out my chair...



I remember growing up and in the early 80's drawing comic book characters. I drew this one guy in a ninja-like suit standing off the shores of Libya. He had a gun in hand, and I had named him the Libyan destroyer (meaning he was there to destroy Libya). I was a product of American media in perfect lock step. You'll never guess what type of gun he was holding... that's right, an Isreali Uzi!

Since then, I've been to the lost and found. :)

Well, I wouldn't say I was or am a fan of Qadafi in the least, and that is not my point. My point is that echoing media blindly isn't healthy. Critical review is necessary, and the whole reason I'm on this thread is to offer another perspective - for balance.

There was a comparison by Ken a few posts back linking Hezbullah's rockets to Hitler's bombing of London. Good God! Those puny rockets haven't done much when you compare them to the utter destruction of the Isreali airstrikes. If you compare pictures from the Nazi airraid over London and the airraids over Beirut, ... well, those pictures do look quite similar.

Now does that mean I am saying that Israel is doing what Hitler did? No, all I am saying is that if people make those kinds of charged comparisons, then they are just saying Hezbollah is plain evil and there's no way to deal with them except view them as such and wipe them out.
Why? If people don't know why groups like Hamas and Hezbollah exist, then they should keep quite about them. Offer solutions, don't criticize what you don't understand. Understand it first.

Right now, as you read this, 80% of the people in Gaza are below the poverty line with one meal a day handed out. There's over a million people in Gaza.

With regard to the Isreali-Hezbollah conflict, both sides apologized for hitting civilians. One does so with crude technology, the other with precision. What is the fight all about? A few kidnapped soldiers? Not likely. There are deeper underpinnings, and to not talk about these means nothing in the scope of resolving any issues.

In any case, the UN wants fighting to stop, the US says it wants a lasting peace ( who doesn't? ), and so Israel has a green light from the US to do what it is doing. Anybody read "Strategy of Conflict" - you know, perpetual conflict as a strategy to achieve a political aim. Yeah, peace is war - welcome to 1984 (again!).

Warmongers suck.

Here I stand, and here I sit.... if someone can show me a better chair with a clearer view, I'll take it. Some people are just couch potatoes.

-Randall

[bluesgtr44]

Hey Randall...

then they are just saying Hezbollah is plain evil and there's no way to deal with them except view them as such and wipe them out.

Now, I agree with you on the media...they have no credibility with me..."A half truth is a whole lie"...that is the world our media lives in, half truths.

As for your above quote...if the only negotiation with Hezbollah is the extermination of Isreal, how do you negotiate that! Again, read above...is our source of information not telling us something?

If people don't know why groups like Hamas and Hezbollah exist, then they should keep quite about them. Offer solutions, don't criticize what you don't understand. Understand it first.

They exist to erradicate Isreal...I have heard that in the schools in the middle east, their geography text books do not show Isreal...it shows Palestine and is designated "occupied territory". If we are being given half truths, enlighten us...this is what we get from the media...Isreal has to go away....

Right now, as you read this, 80% of the people in Gaza are below the poverty line with one meal a day handed out. There's over a million people in Gaza.

OK, I remember when Arafat died, there was a settlement involving multi-millions with his wife and the P.L.O., I thought it was supposed to be for all palestinians. Hmmm, wonder why they only get one meal a day...

Golda Mier was asked once..."When will there be peace between the middle east nations and Isreal?" Her answer..."When the Muslims love their children more than they hate the Jews."

If I am misinformed, correct me...but, do you think Isreal should...maybe, move?


Steve

[ken_behrendt]

No doubt that the Palestinian peoples are suffering in their various territories and refugee camps. That is, indeed, tragic especially when one considers that a large percentage of the foreign aid they are supposed to receive goes into the Swiss bank accounts of their leaders.

One even begins to wonder if the present "conflict" is not really a sort of cottage industry which their leaders keep going so that they can continue to siphon off a generous percentage of the funding that comes into these areas. Maybe the desperation and fanaticism of their youth is actually carefully nurtured so that the conflict can be kept going from one generation to another?

I think that if the Palenstinians could make peace with Israel, acknowledge the latter's right to exist where they now are, and make sure all terrorist activities cease immediately, then they could, literally, have the Israeli's bending over backwards to assist them economically and begin improving their standard of living.

However, such a peaceful two state solution is certain not part of Osama's global plan. He wants a world girdling "Caliphate" that will stretch from Moracco in the west to the Phillipines in the east. No one, but fanatically devoted Taliban style muslims, will be welcomed in that Caliphate. Thus, it will contain no secular democratic governments, no foreigners, no "bad" muslims, and, certainly, no Jews or Christians!

Success at finally bringing peace to the Middle East would be a major setback for Osama's plans. That is why I am predicting that, regardless of any UN Resolutions, "shuttle diplomacy", or propaganda, this matter will, ultimately, be determined on the battlefield.

As soon as Israel finds itself under attach, from whatever direction, they will make an initial "good faith" effort to negotiate for peace...just so long as it does not require them to give up any land they held prior to 1967. If that can be done, then fine...peace will reign.

If that can not be done, then we will see Israel do a repeat of what they are now doing in southern Lebanon. They will invade the territory from which attacks are being launched against them, destroy all weapons and guerilla fighters in the region, and then establish another "buffer zone" there.

When this happens, Arab anger will intensify, new militantants will arise and the attacks will continue from the region just beyond what the Israeli Defense Forces hold. Slowly, the buffer zone around Israel will expand. Meanwhile, the surrounding Arab countries will, if Iran is ever allowed to acquire nuclear weapons, begin to equip themselves with nuclear armed missiles. To counter this, Israel will have to begin to increase its supply of nuclear missiles.

This Middle East "Cold War" will continue for several decades until the day comes when some aging Ayatollah has a "vision" in which he is told by an angel that it is time to destroy Israel so that the heart of the Caliphate can be "purified". Buttons will be pushed and, in less than an hour, major Israeli and Arab/Persian cities throughout the region will be reduced to radioactive rubble amongst which will be mixed the cremated remains of tens of millions of people. Those who planned this Armageddon action will, of course, be sitting it out comfortably in foreign countries or heavily reinforced underground bunkers.

Will it ever come to this? Could it ever come to this?

Well, I like to be an optimist and believe that everything will work out just fine for everybody in the long run. But, when I see some of the near insane hatred displayed in the unnecessary mutilation of captives in the hands of the terrorists, I fear for what may happen in the future of that region and the resulting consequences that it will have for the rest of the world's economies.


Let's hope that, somehow, the terrorist groups can be permanently neutralized so that true peace can come to the world.



I just heard another troubling news "blurb" this morning.

Apparently, Hezbollah may now have several "cells" in the USA that are awaiting orders to create mayhem over here! This organization, because of the advanced weapons being supplied to them, is, in a sense, even more dangerous than Al-Qaeda! And, they are also "worldwide" according to one counter terrrorism expert I listened to.



ken

[rmd3]

Steve,

As for your above quote...if the only negotiation with Hezbollah is the extermination of Isreal, how do you negotiate that! Again, read above...is our source of information not telling us something?

You give back the land you stole. And, yes, back-story is missing from most of the news. News is simply latest developments.

If I am misinformed, correct me...but, do you think Isreal should...maybe, move?

Okay. Where to?


Since it is an important topic, let's give it due consideration...

Is it the political entity or the Israeli people that these groups want “exterminated.” In reality, it is the political entity. And you can call it extermination, or you can call it dissolved, or whatever, but it is not an extermination of the Jewish people. That was Hilter - not Arabs and certainly not Muslims - and it’s just sick to make the comparison.

Now, understanding that it is Israel the political entity, letÂ’s understand why. You see, why these groups exist is not to exterminate Israel. DonÂ’t give Israel undue focus. It really doesnÂ’t matter who is the occupier. They exist because they seek their rights and justice. You and I may not like their means, but that is why they exist. They want justice. There is no peace without justice, is there?

How can anyone condemn the Palestinians for wanting what was stolen from them?
Tell me, on what basis should any Israeli stay in a house stolen from a Palestinian? On what basis should the PalestinianÂ’s land be usurped? What gives an occupier any right?
You can condemn terrorism all you want. I’ll join you. But that isn’t the crux of the issue – it’s just an excuse to not deal with the issue: occupation and usurping of land and oppressing a people.

If we are for democracy, then if the Palestinians don’t want to recognize Israel, that’s their choice. Its democracy, take it or leave it. So if Israel is not in a Palestinian textbook, does that make the Palestinians wrong for not recognizing the state which stole their land? Does that mean the Palestinian Authority won’t negotiate with Israel? No, in fact, isn’t it Israel who wouldn’t negotiate because they want Hamas to recognize them as a precondition? Not “officially” recognizing Israel doesn’t preclude Hamas from dealing with the political reality. In fact, both are political realities. What moral incentive is there for Palestinians to recognize Israel? Justice? Israel has a right? What right?

If Israel would let negotiations proceed, perhaps they could win over Hamas or Hezbollah or whoever… Arabs are a generous people and return kindness with kindness (as are most people in the world) – I’ve witnessed it many times first-hand. (This does not preclude Isrealis or Jews from being generous people, too – some people read things into words that aren’t there).

So how do you negotiate with people who want to “exterminate” Israel? You start by asking what is meant by extermination, and why do they want to do that, and how can we resolve this peacefully, and what should we do with our people. One Palestinian said, it’s a matter of sovereignty – hand over the government to the Palestinians and the Jews can stay. I’d add that, if that solution were to be undertaken, to hope for an Islamic leader and not an Arab nationalist, because the Islamic leader will show great mercy, but the nationalist will want retribution.

Not practical? Heck, weÂ’re doing something like it in Iraq. If America is the example for the world, maybe Hamas and Hezbollah are just following the American way.

Israel wants to keep what it stole, how do you negotiate with that? Both sides want the same thing, the land of Palestine. The Islamic solution exists without exterminating anyone, the Israeli solution exists and involves pushing people off their land and subjugating them to ill treatment.

People forget that Jerusalem had under Islamic rule established the Jewish and Christian quarters – and they think Arabs hate Jews more than their own children. Get real!

I wonder if Israel let all Palestinians return to their lands if there would be any opposition to the existence of the state of Israel. My guess is that weÂ’ll never know.

Arafat and Golda Mier

If leaders of a government are corrupt, it does not make the people corrupt. Blaming leaders but punishing the people is unjust. With regard to Arafat and his millions, let his Maker deal with him. Palestinians know there is corruption in Fatah, so perhaps thatÂ’s why Hamas won. Despite the militant wing of Hamas, Hamas is known for its humanitarian work and honest politicians in Palestine.

As for the Golda Mier quote, that is her opinion. I think the exact quote is Arabs and not Muslims (although I did see one quote on the web that said Palestinians). Do you see the problem with this quote. It buckets all Arabs as Jew haters, and that is not true. Tell that to the Arab in Baghdad who, at the start of the invasion of Iraq, was protecting the property of a Jew who fled to Israel. Tell me, what is the nickname for Arabs that Israelis who don’t like Arabs use? See the problem with that quote is that it also paints all Arabs as having not much love for their kids. What if someone said “There will be peace in the Middle East when Jews love their children more than they hate Arabs.” It works the same way – accomplishing nothing.


Ken,

Okay. Blame the Palestinian leaders and let Israel punish the people. But Israel has no blame, right? Come on. If they showed half the pictures that exist regarding Israeli aggression against the Palestinians in the American media, youÂ’d be whistling a different tune. LetÂ’s divide up 500,000,000 million amongst 1.5 million people (50% are children), and we getÂ…
A few dollars per person – that will last a few days…. Then what, it is still the leaders fault that Israel shoots kids?

Conspriacy theories against the Palestinian leadership to keep their pockets lined are okay, but if we try to have a conspiracy theory against say, Zionists, or say, 911, that would just be wrong.

Osama's agenda was(is?) to remove foreign occupiers from the Arabian peninsula. You didnÂ’t listen to the talk I posted beforeÂ… now how can we have a meaningful dialog?

Anyway, there’s really nothing wrong with a Caliphate, except in your imagination of what that means since you don’t know what that means (which is evident from your posts). Remember I said Jews and Christians were protected minorities under Islamic rule? There are Christian Arabs all over, Islamic rule didn’t destroy those peoples. There were Arabian Jews all over, Islamic rule didn’t destroy those people. I heard on NPR that Christians started experienced persecution in the Middle East in the early 1900s – guess what? That’s when the Caliphate was dismantled. I know a nurse who talked with an old Armenian (Christian) lady who was in the hospital and was actually alive as a little girl living in Iraq just before or after the fall of the Caliphate and she said things were fine until the Caliphate was destroyed – She said that Muslims, Christians and Jews were living fine with each other.

I could rant and rave about Zionist agenda to usurp much of the land in the Middle East, but I know that doesnÂ’t help the situation, and is not be true for a vast majority of Isrealis. I could go on about the Christian right and their hope that Jesus comes back and they want Armageddon to happen so they can be whisked away to Heaven, but that doesnÂ’t help the situation and is not true for the majority of Chirsitans. But all that stuff does is add fuel to the fire for all sides.

It doesnÂ’t have to be the end of time now, why push it?

If Ken can speculate, so can IÂ…

You know what I think will happen (and this is pure speculation)… the Muslims will get a ruler, and the Christians will scream “Anti-Christ”, and there will rise up a ruler from amongst the Christians claiming to be Jesus (who will really be the Anit-christ) and the one claiming to be Jesus will have one of his eyes deformed, and the Isreali Jews will follow him, and as their army gets close to the Muslim army in Damascus, the Real Jesus will descend down a minaret, pray with the Muslims (Jesus is the Messiah in Islam, but not God or Son of God, and was never crucified, but he was taken up to the Heaven and will return at the end of time – according to traditional Sunni Islam ). Then the Real Jesus will kill the fake Jesus, and rule the world.

So what is the solution? Â…Hey, IÂ’m just offering back-story and perspective. I wish I knew. Clearly, if we trace back, one party was the aggressor, and the way to peace is justice. I think Israel should take a chance on forgiveness from the Palestians and Palestians should offer forgiveness. I just hope Israel hasnÂ’t gone too far to destroy that option for them.

-Randall

PS. Ken, I didn't see a comment about the Israeli children writing stuff on bombs intended for Lebanon. What do you think of that?

[bluesgtr44]

Hey Randall...

You give back the land you stole.

And just how far back can we go with this...I mean, was this not the original Jewish homeland...you know Jerusalem...Kind David and all of that. So, how far do we go back to in history to determine who stole what from who...and understand....whether it was stolen or not will fall under..."where you sit...is where you stand" "look for something hard enough, you'l find it" and they will look deep, deep to back their individual arguments.

but it is not an extermination of the Jewish people. That was Hilter - not Arabs and certainly not Muslims - and itÂ’s just sick to make the comparison.

Uhhh, direct quotes from mid east leaders like..."push them out to the sea" words like "exterminate" and "erradicate". Are you kidding? Now, maybe something gets lost in the interpretation, but these are pretty self explanatory. I do agree that if the Jewish were settled after WWII someplace else besides the Middle East, we probably would not be having this conversation. I have read history texts and such on the relations of these people throughout time...they flat out do not like each other from a historical perspective. But, then again...we are back to "is that the whole truth" or is it the authors perspective...

How can anyone condemn the Palestinians for wanting what was stolen from them?

I believe we just covered that..."stolen", who stole from who and when did the original theft take place....lol...you just gotta love it! Sides will always see things to their advantage. We are flawed!

What gives an occupier any right?

...I'm sure you meant Citizen, not occupier. Hey, don't take my word for it...just ask any Isreali...they are citizens...so, are you seeing how this works. Whichever side one sits on, defines occupier or citizen. And I have a HUGE feeling, that neither side is ready budge right about now. They are both right...just ask them.

So how do you negotiate with people who want to “exterminate” Israel?

I think by now we see the crux....who stole from who and who has or should have it now. You know as well as I do, one will not live under the other entities rule.


Steve

[ovyyus]

Randall, thanks for your well thought out and reasoned comments. It seems inevitable that hate will run its due course before these people rediscover the peace and value in each other that was always there.

[rmd3]

Steve,

Your analysis that both sides will only see things from their perspective is partialy true, but my advice is that you shouldn't sit in that position making such a stand. ;) How can anyone convince you that there is a right side and wrong side to any dispute? :)

I need to know which Arab leaders said "push them out to see" and "exterminate" and "irradicate" beacuse I need to verify it for myself.

who stole from who and when did the original theft take place....lol...you just gotta love it! Sides will always see things to their advantage. We are flawed!

As far as I know, isn't it a biblical reality that the Jews were expelled as a punishment by God, according to their tradition, so the land was up for grabs after that. So unless we have a text stating that exiled Jews have a new right, we can pretty much rest asured that the claim of 2000 years ago isn't valid. Can that be agreed upon? That's not my decision that is by the witness of Orthodox Jews who say Israel should not exist. http://www.nkusa.org/. So judge Israel by the Torah. (NOTE: this group isn't liked by pro-Israeli folk - because of where they sit).

I think there are shared principles between the Arab peoples and the Jewish peoples. They have to find those shared principles... no, they have to want to find them, and then do it. Maybe peace will be found when all sides return back to their religious teachings in a real and meaningful way - not some political misuse of religion.

You are right that people entrenched in their views won't budge even with reason. That does not mean that there is not a right and wrong that both sides would have to objectively admit to. I'm not saying they will, one can only hope.

Hope's about all we got.

-Randall

PS. Ovyyus, I appreciate the compliment. Thanks.

[jim_mich]

A few thousand years ago a certain man didn't have any children. His wife seemed to be unable to conceive. So he used his wife's handmaiden as a surrogate mother who bore him a son. Shortly thereafter his wife conceived and bore him another son. Now he had a problem. His solution was to send the handmaiden and her son out of town. This man's descendents by his second son grew into many mighty nations and peoples. The Jewish people are part of his descendents. The descendents of his first son that he sent out of town wandered the desert and became the Arabs. For thousands of years the Arabs have hated the Jews for taking what they consider their lawful right. And the Jews have considered the Arabs as being a second class people.

These hatreds and prejudices get passed from generation to generation.

The man that started it all was named Abraham.

If only these two “half brother” races could forgive what happened in the past. If only they could be nice and respect one another.

[rmd3]

Jim,

There is no teaching in Arab culture that says the Arabs have a right over Jews to the land of Palestine. That is not what this conflict is about.

The Islamic teaching is that there was no jealously or animosity between Isaac and Ishmael. The Islamic teaching is that both were prophets of God, and you can find in the Torah that both buried their father together. Both were blessed by God and said, by God according to the Torah, that they would be a great nation. The Islamic teaching is that there were changes to the revelations before the QurÂ’an which were entrusted to people, and so Muslims do not accept the verse that speaks negatively of Prophet Ishmael. Nor is any negative attribute attributed to Isaac.

From the perspective of who has been living in the land the longest, it would seem to be the Arabs, so I doubt they were left out of anything or had any reason to be jealous. DidnÂ’t Abraham also pray for Ishmael? And didnÂ’t God Himself name Ishmael according to the Torah?

So I donÂ’t think the matter is a distant past of jealousy and animosity. While hatred and prejudices can get passed on from generation to generation, they arenÂ’t always. Look how far America has come in the last 100 years? But, I tell you what, if someone shoots/bombs your kid, you donÂ’t need hand-me-down hatred to get pissed off.

So until sides stop “sitting” like Steve says, things really won’t change.

-Randall

[rmd3]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e14055.htm

If you want to live in the dark, don't view this, but if you want to have an understanding of where the other "sits" then you'll appreciate this.