Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

[daxwc]

On your first one it seems the left side is locking in too late. The right side looks like normal swing pattern to me on a physical model I had where the weight doesn’t move over vertical till after 3pm.

On your second Test. Why is the graph so choppy? Looks almost something has a problem. It should be more even.

Just trying to help 8(

[daxwc]

An out of the box suggestion on the First one. When the swinger weight reaches 5 :30 PM have at contact “bump” that swings it back more right. It needs just to be an instant of a second.

[Gregory]

For me I generally follow the A, B, C rule ..

A. Assume Nothing ..
B. Believe Nothing ..
C. Check Everything ..

I have to believe what B. said about the interior of his wheels because there is no detailed evidence to the contrary - and Karl said it was genuine and was simple, and he was surprised no one else had built it before B.

We have independent evidence of the work tests his wheels performed, so I believe that ..

Great rules!
Sounds helpful for keeping the eyes on the facts and reality.

Yes, it's an intriguing clue that the interior of the wheel is said to be simple. Or maybe it was just looked simple, and the physics behind the action might be more magical than it seems from an outsider's perspective... I think that can be a plausible explanation for why nobody did it before or after... But I agree, it can be a real phenomena and also look simple and genuine for a spectator.
Something like simple swingers would fit the bill for sure... and also a few other things could fit it as well, I guess.

My next task when time allows will be to draw up my upgraded wheel format, with one to multiple internal prime Movers ( crosses, pulls, and weights ) - it will be in schematic form, and then we can go on from there ..

I will say this before I post those schematics, because I think a little pre-warning will help later understanding - as was said recently in a post it is not just a brute force lifting wheel ..

* If what I suggested was his first POP wheel, and it had an external pump and dump Pendulum, with internal one-way swingers, and B. said it turned " a little " then those sims also fit-the-bill of a lackluster performance ..

* My "bells and whistles" upgrade has internal Prime Mover(s) and an enhanced ability to harvest momentum imo ..

I think of it as my " Mechanical Motion Rectifier " ( for want of a better term, or analogous to in other fields a commutator / inverter / diode ) .. you get the picture, think mechanical sea-wave energy harvesting i.e. lateral moving wave energy gets converted into vertical linear potential - my theory says it takes wheel motion in any x or y coordinate direction ( e.g. horizontal and/or vertical ) and rectifies it into upward/vertical movement/motion of the swingers to repeatedly restore PE and renew torque to self-rotate ..

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Your Mechanical Motion Rectifier needs to be a cunning daemon with clever spells. Sounds great, btw!
I can't picture it exactly for a wheel environment, but I see your examples and have a few ideas how you mean it.
So, yeah... the action of something like that would be awesome to watch! :)

I also came up with a new experiment, will post up soon...

[Gregory]

That is also mostly no doubt true - for me it is all of that, plus the Physics of Energy, and Conservation Laws, that hopefully can eventually explain why a runner can be real - for me that means finding a plausible explanation for " where the extra energy comes from " - follow the energy and the mechanics must eventually become less mysterious - however, the pull of gravity is strong :)

I also think that the actual physics of the thing is the first/most important point, before thinking about different mechanisms, etc.

I view gravity as an energy storage mechanism, like a perfect constant force spring. It's really like that, a potential energy storage device. You can only take out what you have already put there. And just like that an OOB wheel can work as long as you don't use the wheel's own rotational energy to lift the weights, so you not taking away the food from the wheel...

If there would be something... anything available to repeatedly do the lifting, then sure it will work.
But otherwise, it won't.

So, the question is:
Where do you get the extra energy which is not part of the wheel's own rotation/kinetic energy/momentum?
Or perhaps you can borrow somehow, then set up and cheat everyone? Or can keep both the goat and the cabbage?

And that is a fascinating question!
As well as can be irritating...

[Gregory]

Hi Fletcher,

I haven't finished with the swinger cart analysis so far, instead out of intuition and curiosity I did a different experiment.
This is not intended to be a working wheel yet, here I only introduced a periodical sideways wobble (via synthetic force) to the entire wheel environment to see what happens, how the swingers react, and how it accelerates. Latches employed the same way as before.

So yeah... it accelerates pretty good when fed like this!
Check it out and have a play with it...

[Fletcher]

On your first one it seems the left side is locking in too late. The right side looks like normal swing pattern to me on a physical model I had where the weight doesn’t move over vertical till after 3pm.

On your second Test. Why is the graph so choppy? Looks almost something has a problem. It should be more even.

Just trying to help 8( All observations and objective comments are welcome dax .. all will possibly become clear ..

An out of the box suggestion on the First one. When the swinger weight reaches 5 :30 PM have at contact “bump” that swings it back more right. It needs just to be an instant of a second. I would if I could but the swingers circulate CCW relative to the CW turning wheel making a bump-stop impractical - that's why Gregory ( and myself in some of my previous iterations ) went to the geared Ramelli / Roberval setup so that the bump-stop was always located in the same place so the swinger could bump off it ..

cheers ..

[Fletcher]

A, B, C .. Great rules! Sounds helpful for keeping the eyes on the facts and reality.

Yes, it's an intriguing clue that the interior of the wheel is said to be simple. Or maybe it was just looked simple, and the physics behind the action might be more magical than it seems from an outsider's perspective... I think that can be a plausible explanation for why nobody did it before or after... But I agree, it can be a real phenomena and also look simple and genuine for a spectator. The inside of the wheel could look simple and easy to build without any spectator necessarily knowing the technical background of the HOW and WHY it worked, or they could join the dots for themselves - " need to know basis " - and only Karl needed to know ..

Something like simple swingers would fit the bill for sure... and also a few other things could fit it as well, I guess.


Your Mechanical Motion Rectifier needs to be a cunning daemon with clever spells. Sounds great, btw!

I can't picture it exactly for a wheel environment, but I see your examples and have a few ideas how you mean it.

So, yeah... the action of something like that would be awesome to watch! :)

I also came up with a new experiment, will post up soon... ;7)

[Fletcher]

Hi Fletcher,

I haven't finished with the swinger cart analysis so far ( take your time ), instead out of intuition and curiosity I did a different experiment.

This is not intended to be a working wheel yet, here I only introduced a periodical sideways wobble (via synthetic force) to the entire wheel environment to see what happens, how the swingers react, and how it accelerates. Latches employed the same way as before.

So yeah... it accelerates pretty good when fed like this! Races up to 40 rpm in no time at all *grin* ..

Check it out and have a play with it... I will lol .. Good Job ! .. Things of Beauty ! .. If you want spectacular don't do the ordinary ! ..

Hi Gregory .. we are quickly heading to the same page .. my Prime Mover upgrade replaces your synthetic sideways wobble forces with what I hope will be a real and harvestable vertical ( and slight sideways ) " wobble " ( to use your words ), to do exactly the same thing to the swingers - so we end up harvesting energy from the wheels attachment to its immediate environmental " motion and movement " ( i.e. ambient energy / momentum harvesting ) in the x and y coordinates to reset the swingers vertically and create torque and acceleration ..

I called it a Mechanical Motion Rectifier, which can hypothetically take an environmental " wobble " ( horizontal and vertical ) from either the earth's momentum affecting the structure the wheel is attached too, or, the ambient stresses and strains of a building thru the day and night for instance ( releasing tension forces * all buildings thermally " move " * ) the wheel is attached too, and the local vibrations and stresses and strains of everyday living, and rectifying these small sharp movements into swinging the swingers upwards which in turn rotate the wheel in which they are housed .. so, energy in can then be rectified and repurposed for external Work and the energy budget is balanced ..

If I was to give another alternative mind picture I would say it shares the DNA of a simple mechanical self-winding watch - where the self-winding internal pendulum is replaced by my swingers and Prime Movers - and where instead of your wrist moving thru the day to constantly wind the watch the wheels hard attachment to its building and the ambient forces and motions I described above wind it up continually .. fwiw, something to think on .. ETA .. over simplified mind picture - living next door to a busy train track !

I'm under the pump atm so will get back when I can - cheers -f ..

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[daxwc]

Fletcher:“I called it a Mechanical Motion Rectifier, which can hypothetically take an environmental " wobble " ( horizontal and vertical ) from either the earth's momentum affecting the structure the wheel is attached too, or, the ambient stresses and strains of a building thru the day and night for instance ( releasing tension forces * all buildings thermally " move " * ) the wheel is attached too, and the local vibrations and stresses and strains of everyday living, and rectifying these small sharp movements into swinging the swingers upwards which in turn rotate the wheel in which they are housed .. so, energy in can then be rectified and repurposed for external Work and the energy budget is balanced ..”

Ahhh… I see the obsessive compulsion for the ceiling.


This reminds me of the stick that always straighten in the day and curved at night that was the backbone of an aledged perpetual motion machine in antiquity.

[daxwc]

“

ME: An out of the box suggestion on the First one. When the swinger weight reaches 5 :30 PM have at contact “bump” that swings it back more right. It needs just to be an instant of a second

. Fletcher:I would if I could but the swingers circulate CCW relative to the CW turning wheel making a bump-stop impractical - that's why Gregory ( and myself in some of my previous iterations ) went to the geared Ramelli / Roberval setup so that the bump-stop was always located in the same place so the swinger could bump off it …

Yes understood…But wouldn’t it be easier to have a freewheeling drum that is offset? Probably brings other problems I haven't thought of.

When I built a version of this I used what I called gravity stops. They were hinges that would hang flat then in 180 degrees would then make an L in hanging the other direction to use at a stop. Wish I could redo the experiment with the pendulums.

[Georg Künstler]

I think of it as my " Mechanical Motion Rectifier " ( for want of a better term, or analogous to in other fields a commutator / inverter / diode ) .. you get the picture, think mechanical sea-wave energy harvesting i.e. lateral moving wave energy gets converted into vertical linear potential - my theory says it takes wheel motion in any x or y coordinate direction ( e.g. horizontal and/or vertical ) and rectifies it into upward/vertical movement/motion of the swingers to repeatedly restore PE and renew torque to self-rotate ..

Here I have an example how we repeatly get energy from vertical speed.
The mechanism periodically try to stop the flow and therefore it is creating waves against gravity.
The river flow is the same before and after the energy is extracted.
You can also use the mechanism against/in sea waves.

Waterwheel

Screenshot 2025-02-17 202140.png (129.3 KiB) Viewed 476 times

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/14Ra3FqJP9/

For Those who cannot detect the movement, this is a periodic wave, generated on a wave.
The mechanism generates periodically a wave against gravity, this energy is free.
We can adapt this type of movement also in the Bessler wheel in the bi directional wheel.
In the mechanism i used as basic the apologia wheel with the 120 degrees offset.

[Fletcher]

Here is my Internal ' All Goes Around With The Wheel ' Prime Mover Structure - this is an animation of a basic schematic showing a 3D movement in 2D of the Prime Mover in operation - for this, the wheel does not turn and there are no " one-way swingers " in place to create a reoccurring OOB as we have studied previously .. it is purely to show that if the support posts are connected to a sprung-like floor and ceiling ( represented by dampened spring elements ) then the bent-arm A Prime Mover can cause the floor and ceiling to flex which in turn lifts the entire wheel assembly including the swingers if they were included .. here I have shown just one " cross " with an opposing orange Counter Weight so that when it is not deployed ( while morphing shape ) it is balanced ( any small COM difference does not make any real difference in a cycle ) - there can be odd or even numbers of Prime Movers, say 3 sets with opposing counter-weights at 120 degrees apart separation, or even numbers where their are 2 Prime Movers opposite each other etc - when allowed to fall the length of the A arms and the amount of mass at the ends control the time ( inertia - important ) it takes to complete a half swing cycle and regain its GPE back to balanced - the driver weight " pumps and dumps " the wheel system vertically in this representation .. swingers would be at about half radius or so imo ..

My theory says that if we take a CW turning wheel the act of the driver losing GPE ( say it is triggered at or near 10.30 o'cl and recovering after 1.30 o'cl after impulse ) will cause an ice-skater effect ( temporarily change the system MOI and back ) and pump and dump the wheel system by alternately increasing and then decreasing wheel angular velocity which will raise up the swingers into OOB/torque - simultaneously, the act of the driver plunging downwards and being arrested ( it pulls everything down ) and the floor and ceiling catapulting it sharply upwards also pumps and dumps the wheel system ( via its roof and floor connection ) vertically, also raising up the swingers to give increased OOB potential additional to MOI changing ice-skater effect - this imo is a double bang for our buck ! ..

* I include the sim for those interested - I had to deactivate one rod of the bent-arm A as a workaround because it was binding badly crossing over ( the joys of programs ) - this makes no difference to the swinging symmetry actions etc because the arms are coordinated by the gears in this representation rather than a standard SB segment etc ..

* My focus is almost always on WHY a runner should have excess energy, the HOW in my mind is an engineering problem that can be fine tuned and evolve once the WHY has a possible rational theory, IMO ! ..

ETA .. sim included as an attachment .. will build on this internal mechanical upgrade to the external pendulum approach as time allows ..

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[Fletcher]

A CW One-Way wheel - what the Prime Mover does in practical terms - some imagination required ..

The wheel is stationary and tied down - the Prime Mover is orientated to 9 o'cl with the Counter-Weight facing 3 o'cl - the Prime Mover and its Counter-Weight are completely balanced and provide no torque to the wheel ..

The wheel has an overbalance because the swingers are preset to give an CW torque, so upon release the wheel will revolve and accelerate CW carrying the balanced Prime Mover with it ..

When the Prime Mover rotates to around 10.30 o'cl it is freed to move ( natural timing, or latch or release ) - providing the Driver can lose GPE it will morph shape as the A closes and later opens again on the other side of the wheel - the speed that this morphing process happens ( time it takes ) is controlled by the inertia and length of arms of the A so that it will open again once past tdc, in fact past 1.30 o'cl, requiring slightly less PE restoration than from where it started from in an ideal situation ..

At 10.30 o'cl as it begins to morph its shape under gravity influence the Prime Mover Structure is no longer balanced - it is now bottom heavy ( has a COM below the axle ) which will accelerate the wheel towards tdc/bdc ( 12 and 6 o'cl ) like any pendulum action - at the same time as the A begins morphing the Moment Of Inertia ( MOI ) of the Prime Mover is temporarily decreased and then increased again later at reset position on the other side of the wheel - this " ice-skater effect " causes an increase and then decrease in the wheels Angular Velocity - both these parallel actions contribute to the x and y axis pumping and dumping of the swingers to raise them upwards into continued repeating overbalance / torque positions ..

Simultaneously to the above actions, the act of the Driver sequentially " falling " and " recovering " its height and balance during a half cycle morphing exercise causes the floor and ceiling it is attached to to flex downwards and upwards ( inertia's and tension ) repeatedly - also adding to the setting of the swingers into renewing overbalance / torque positions by rectifying " wheel " motion and movement into raising up the one-way swingers ..

The swingers are the mechanical method of maintaining the runners gravity overbalance and torque so it will accelerate and gain in momentum once released .. the Prime Mover(s) temporarily unbalance while they are morphing and cause the swingers to continually reset themselves before coasting with the wheel in balanced position until required to go again approaching tdc as before - together the Prime Mover(s) and one-way swingers form a feedback pathway that accelerates the wheel forward until rpm stabilizes at a speed/rpm determined mainly by wheel internal geometry relationships ..

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[johannesbender]

I am still following , but to be clear , are you implying its a requirement for the boards to move or just a side-affect of a wooden structure , i imagine you mean a mere side-affect because we know Bessler wrote his wheels would work in mines and other places windmills or waterwheels and such could not (paraphrased from bad memory).

[Gregory]

Here is my Internal ' All Goes Around With The Wheel ' Prime Mover Structure - this is an animation of a basic schematic showing a 3D movement in 2D of the Prime Mover in operation - for this, the wheel does not turn and there are no " one-way swingers " in place to create a reoccurring OOB as we have studied previously .. it is purely to show that if the support posts are connected to a sprung-like floor and ceiling ( represented by dampened spring elements ) then the bent-arm A Prime Mover can cause the floor and ceiling to flex which in turn lifts the entire wheel assembly including the swingers if they were included .. here I have shown just one " cross " with an opposing orange Counter Weight so that when it is not deployed ( while morphing shape ) it is balanced ( any small COM difference does not make any real difference in a cycle ) - there can be odd or even numbers of Prime Movers, say 3 sets with opposing counter-weights at 120 degrees apart separation, or even numbers where their are 2 Prime Movers opposite each other etc - when allowed to fall the length of the A arms and the amount of mass at the ends control the time ( inertia - important ) it takes to complete a half swing cycle and regain its GPE back to balanced - the driver weight " pumps and dumps " the wheel system vertically in this representation .. swingers would be at about half radius or so imo ..

Hhmm... That's a nice setup of components! I like your prime mover idea. It somewhat reminds me of an old idea I did a while back. I tried to use a "CF seekers" type of prime mover, tiny pendular masses intended to swing chaotically under CF and I hoped to utilize their swinging momentum...

Right, your A-prime movers are interesting. I got two ideas...
- What if these crosses with the counter weight can be designed to contribute to the OOB? Like stay open and locked on the descending side with a smaller counter weight pair? And then swinging on the ascending side doing the pumping and resetting swingers?
- Or they can be arranged in pairs of pairs connected together? So, that way they are always gravitationally balanced. But then they would need a somewhat modified driver/activator setup...

But actually, this mech is already intriguing as it is. Congrats!

My theory says that if we take a CW turning wheel the act of the driver losing GPE ( say it is triggered at or near 10.30 o'cl and recovering after 1.30 o'cl after impulse ) will cause an ice-skater effect ( temporarily change the system MOI and back ) and pump and dump the wheel system by alternately increasing and then decreasing wheel angular velocity which will raise up the swingers into OOB/torque - simultaneously, the act of the driver plunging downwards and being arrested ( it pulls everything down ) and the floor and ceiling catapulting it sharply upwards also pumps and dumps the wheel system ( via its roof and floor connection ) vertically, also raising up the swingers to give increased OOB potential additional to MOI changing ice-skater effect - this imo is a double bang for our buck ! ..

Seriously, this floor and ceiling tensioning, I couldn't think of this... It's so dope, mate! :7)
But I see the point, it can potentially help to further steer those swingers.
One remark... I think the MoI change have to be significant to has the necessary influence, power and acceleration. This comes up usually with these type of devices. But right, that's up for testing and experimenting, and so on...

* I include the sim for those interested - I had to deactivate one rod of the bent-arm A as a workaround because it was binding badly crossing over ( the joys of programs ) - this makes no difference to the swinging symmetry actions etc because the arms are coordinated by the gears in this representation rather than a standard SB segment etc ..

Oh, that's a great solution!
How I hated these cross-overs when it broke for me before...

* My focus is almost always on WHY a runner should have excess energy, the HOW in my mind is an engineering problem that can be fine tuned and evolve once the WHY has a possible rational theory, IMO ! ..

Awesome, I agree. I developed the same mindset during the years.