Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

[Gregory]

A CW One-Way wheel - what the Prime Mover does in practical terms - some imagination required ..

The wheel is stationary and tied down - the Prime Mover is orientated to 9 o'cl with the Counter-Weight facing 3 o'cl - the Prime Mover and its Counter-Weight are completely balanced and provide no torque to the wheel ..

The wheel has an overbalance because the swingers are preset to give an CW torque, so upon release the wheel will revolve and accelerate CW carrying the balanced Prime Mover with it ..

When the Prime Mover rotates to around 10.30 o'cl it is freed to move ( natural timing, or latch or release ) - providing the Driver can lose GPE it will morph shape as the A closes and later opens again on the other side of the wheel - the speed that this morphing process happens ( time it takes ) is controlled by the inertia and length of arms of the A so that it will open again once past tdc, in fact past 1.30 o'cl, requiring slightly less PE restoration than from where it started from in an ideal situation ..

At 10.30 o'cl as it begins to morph its shape under gravity influence the Prime Mover Structure is no longer balanced - it is now bottom heavy ( has a COM below the axle ) which will accelerate the wheel towards tdc/bdc ( 12 and 6 o'cl ) like any pendulum action - at the same time as the A begins morphing the Moment Of Inertia ( MOI ) of the Prime Mover is temporarily decreased and then increased again later at reset position on the other side of the wheel - this " ice-skater effect " causes an increase and then decrease in the wheels Angular Velocity - both these parallel actions contribute to the x and y axis pumping and dumping of the swingers to raise them upwards into continued repeating overbalance / torque positions ..

Simultaneously to the above actions, the act of the Driver sequentially " falling " and " recovering " its height and balance during a half cycle morphing exercise causes the floor and ceiling it is attached to to flex downwards and upwards ( inertia's and tension ) repeatedly - also adding to the setting of the swingers into renewing overbalance / torque positions by rectifying " wheel " motion and movement into raising up the one-way swingers ..

The swingers are the mechanical method of maintaining the runners gravity overbalance and torque so it will accelerate and gain in momentum once released .. the Prime Mover(s) temporarily unbalance while they are morphing and cause the swingers to continually reset themselves before coasting with the wheel in balanced position until required to go again approaching tdc as before - together the Prime Mover(s) and one-way swingers form a feedback pathway that accelerates the wheel forward until rpm stabilizes at a speed/rpm determined mainly by wheel internal geometry relationships ..

Nice vision of movements and actions!
Right, I see why you designed the counterweight that way, it can further contribute to OOB when the A-structures are swinging on the ascending side. Another idea is... We can possibly detach the gravitational/driver weight from the wheel environment, and this way it's possible to activate the A-primes any time we want. However, that might be complicated to do, needs some crazy cables and pulleys thing or ramelli/roberval gearing, or whatever...

So yes, this is a good vision for proper testing.

[Fletcher]

Note to Gregory .. too much going on here atm mate to give you a proper reply - will get back to your comments as soon as I can - might be in a day or two - I have what I think are some interesting sims of the A-prime ( thanks for that ) which I think you in particular will enjoy ..

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I am still following , but to be clear , are you implying its a requirement for the boards to move or just a side-affect of a wooden structure , i imagine you mean a mere side-affect because we know Bessler wrote his wheels would work in mines and other places windmills or waterwheels and such could not (paraphrased from bad memory).

Hi jb .. just dashing this off ..

Here's the relevant quote from AP about the mines ..

From John Collins AP pg 300 ..

" As for myself, the first ten years of my labours were completely wasted, 'till God himself lifted me up out of the empty vanities in which I had become stranded. Marvel now at what then in truth happened to me in my new-born state! The secret of the Mobile came at last to me!

Since I have been able to receive it from God, why should He begrudge it the world? Why should the poor not have more work as a result of it? Common-sense leads us to conclude, in fact, that as soon as the world becomes acquainted with my work, many thousands of new water-mills and so on, will be built, often in hilly country, for the benefit of all people on this earth - and, as a result, many thousands of people will have new work to do.

Another use that people will quickly find for my machine is in pumping out mine-workings that become flooded with underground water; too often till now people who would like to earn a little money for themselves have had to sit idly back while the potential riches of such sites go to waste because of excessive water. I've also long thought of applications in smelting and stamping, and of course, mining, as I've just said. To elaborate further, water-power (or lack of it!) has often been a factor in mines not being fully exploited, and many a mine worker has been reduced to the ranks of penury as a result. Who's to blame for all this, I ask - since no-one knew about my Wheel at the time! Who now, though, could look askance at the Wheel, and deny its powers? If it were to be incorporated into a mining operation, just think of the profits that would ensue; the riches that would come from the shafts and the rich workings that would be freed from excess water. Many galleries and passages could then be once more traversed for their full length. Many a treasure, that originally came from Heaven, could be won from the mud. "

Things of note imo ..

1. first 10 years COMPLETELY WASTED !
2. The secret of the Mobile CAME AT LAST to him i.e not related to the first 10 years of fruitless labour in the wrong direction ..
3. For pumping out water flooding from mines - no mention of where and how his runners were to be placed / housed etc ..

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... to be clear , are you implying its a requirement for the boards to move or just a side-affect of a wooden structure , i imagine you mean a mere side-affect ...

No, I don't think it was a strict requirement for the runners to be hard connected to the ceiling and floor that could flex and move - but this requires a more thorough answer than I can give right now ..

I will give this simple answer for now as I see it - B. wanted to display his wheels and their work capability at its most impressive i.e. produce the most POWER he could to impress the people the most - to do that he had to scavenge every single drop of environmental motion and movement he could rectify into upward thrust of swingers ( according to my theory ) to maximize overbalance and torque to do external Work - this meant scavenging almost EVERY ambient motion and movement from any and all sources close at hand to enhance its POWER [ ETA .. and quick ACCELERATION i.e analogous to the heart beating faster ], imo ! Hence why they were attached to the potentially tensionable ( stress forces ) ceiling and floors for demonstrations of Work per se ..

The more involved answer is to do with where the Energy comes from and to do that I have to invoke scavenging and repurposing momentum from the earth and delve into Celestial Mechanics and Math wrt Newton and his formulated laws of motion and gravitation published in " Principia ", in 1687 - that'll have to wait for another discussion time ..

[johannesbender]

Note to Gregory .. too much going on here atm mate to give you a proper reply - will get back to your comments as soon as I can - might be in a day or two - I have what I think are some interesting sims of the A-prime ( thanks for that ) which I think you in particular will enjoy ..

..............................

I am still following , but to be clear , are you implying its a requirement for the boards to move or just a side-affect of a wooden structure , i imagine you mean a mere side-affect because we know Bessler wrote his wheels would work in mines and other places windmills or waterwheels and such could not (paraphrased from bad memory).

Hi jb .. just dashing this off ..

Here's the relevant quote from AP about the mines ..

From John Collins AP pg 300 ..

" As for myself, the first ten years of my labours were completely wasted, 'till God himself lifted me up out of the empty vanities in which I had become stranded. Marvel now at what then in truth happened to me in my new-born state! The secret of the Mobile came at last to me!

Since I have been able to receive it from God, why should He begrudge it the world? Why should the poor not have more work as a result of it? Common-sense leads us to conclude, in fact, that as soon as the world becomes acquainted with my work, many thousands of new water-mills and so on, will be built, often in hilly country, for the benefit of all people on this earth - and, as a result, many thousands of people will have new work to do.

Another use that people will quickly find for my machine is in pumping out mine-workings that become flooded with underground water; too often till now people who would like to earn a little money for themselves have had to sit idly back while the potential riches of such sites go to waste because of excessive water. I've also long thought of applications in smelting and stamping, and of course, mining, as I've just said. To elaborate further, water-power (or lack of it!) has often been a factor in mines not being fully exploited, and many a mine worker has been reduced to the ranks of penury as a result. Who's to blame for all this, I ask - since no-one knew about my Wheel at the time! Who now, though, could look askance at the Wheel, and deny its powers? If it were to be incorporated into a mining operation, just think of the profits that would ensue; the riches that would come from the shafts and the rich workings that would be freed from excess water. Many galleries and passages could then be once more traversed for their full length. Many a treasure, that originally came from Heaven, could be won from the mud. "

Things of note imo ..

1. first 10 years COMPLETELY WASTED !
2. The secret of the Mobile CAME AT LAST to him i.e not related to the first 10 years of fruitless labour in the wrong direction ..
3. For pumping out water flooding from mines - no mention of where and how his runners were to be placed / housed etc ..

.......................

... to be clear , are you implying its a requirement for the boards to move or just a side-affect of a wooden structure , i imagine you mean a mere side-affect ...

No, I don't think it was a strict requirement for the runners to be hard connected to the ceiling and floor that could flex and move - but this requires a more thorough answer than I can give right now ..

I will give this simple answer for now as I see it - B. wanted to display his wheels and their work capability at its most impressive i.e. produce the most POWER he could to impress the people the most - to do that he had to scavenge every single drop of environmental motion and movement he could rectify into upward thrust of swingers ( according to my theory ) to maximize overbalance and torque to do external Work - this meant scavenging almost EVERY ambient motion and movement from any and all sources close at hand to enhance its POWER [ ETA .. and quick ACCELERATION i.e analogous to the heart beating faster ], imo ! Hence why they were attached to the potentially tensionable ( stress forces ) ceiling and floors for demonstrations of Work per se ..

The more involved answer is to do with where the Energy comes from and to do that I have to invoke scavenging and repurposing momentum from the earth and delve into Celestial Mechanics and Math wrt Newton and his formulated laws of motion and gravitation published in " Principia ", in 1687 - that'll have to wait for another discussion time ..

I totally agree with your points 1 & 2 , i had to go and search for where i have read about point 3 and if my memory served me well or not , part of it i remembered correct was what you mentioned about it being useful for mines that you retrieved from AP , but the rest i believe i remembered coming from DT where Bessler wrote to the usefulness of his wheel , so i did a google books search and could only extract a tiny bit of John Collins tranlated book DT page +-206 from a google books search:

(4) People have often felt compelled to resort to hand- or animal- (e.g., horse or oxen) driven mills, and, for want of a better alternative, have had to put up with all the very costly disadvantages of these. People have even been driven to experiment with weight-driven mills, but in the long run have derived even less advantage from these than from hand- or horse-driven ones.

(5) But over all such inconveniences inherent in the running of all mills of prior designs, there triumphs, now present for all to see, the principle of Perpetual Motion. For no burden or resistance is so great that, other things being equal, the P.M. principle cannot overcome it, since it is capable of having its effect multiplied indefinitely, and of being used in combination with other devices. (Page 56)
It follows that the P.M. principle is suitable for driving all types of mill, without the necessity of providing ditches, inclines, weirs, dams, chutes, mill-races, reservoirs, flumes, or any other such troublesome and costly equipment, and then having to maintain them. In the winter, there is no need for ice breaking, and there are no fears about excess or shortage of water, and one never has to worry about which direction the wind is blowing from and then make the necessary adjustments to the sails of the windmill. The P.M. machine can be placed to equal effect wherever one wishes; on the tops of the highest mountains, or in the deepest valleys. Indeed, it is so versatile in its applicability to various tasks that, when necessary, it can be translocated. As a result of all this...

(6) Potentates, rulers, and heads of state everywhere, and the municipal officers of towns, both large and small, will soon appreciate that aforementioned much-praised invention, on (Page 57) account of its endless applications, will be very profitable in the field of milling, but quite invaluable in ore-mining and salt-extraction. In the case of milling, of course, whatever the method used, some of the costs of the operation can be...

If the internals were actually designed to symbiotically work with the flexing of a wooden structure then it would not be a negative , we have no mention of movement of supports of other wheels iirc so i can agree that it wasn't a requirement , my opinion differs slightly since i would think that the moving post was a side-affect and not a designed affect to harness more , but i wont know , i do see what you are showing though regarding your design and movement .

[Fletcher]

Hmm... That's a nice setup of components! I like your prime mover idea. It somewhat reminds me of an old idea I did a while back. I tried to use a "CF seekers" type of prime mover, tiny pendular masses intended to swing chaotically under CF and I hoped to utilize their swinging momentum... yeah, Cf's are always there in a dynamic wheel, so why not try and use them - dam reset was always the problem for me when I have had similar thoughts - fwiw about 5 years into this quest I had the idea of using the natural stresses and strains of a dynamic wheel, with additional spring tensioners to help the OOB required - I actually built a small mock-up - my friend from back then Rainer came around and we tinkered away with the design looking for improvements, but no cigar - anyways, instead of using swingers I went for a different approach of a flexible ( deforming ) rim i.e. imagine a rim made of a flex-beam - the falling Driver punched the rim while also squeezing the wheel rim when its fall is arrested - iow's it was an attempt to make a rim circle into an oval, or make the rim have an outward lump in it to cause the actual overbalance torque before it returned to neutral - the theory looked ok to a point, except obviously it was another non-runner - also it didn't have torque from any position - it was my first real attempt to move away from traditional leverage to create overbalance and reset ..

Right, your A-prime movers are interesting. I got two ideas ...

- What if these crosses with the counter weight can be designed to contribute to the OOB? Like stay open and locked on the descending side with a smaller counter weight pair? And then swinging on the ascending side doing the pumping and resetting swingers? All up for grabs Gregory - I don't hold a monopoly on innovation and design and all ideas welcome - the point is to solve this runner enigma any way we can ..

- Or they can be arranged in pairs of pairs connected together? So, that way they are always gravitationally balanced. But then they would need a somewhat modified driver/activator setup... Always worth investigating if it increases power and efficiency ( power density ) ..

But actually, this mech is already intriguing as it is. Congrats!

Seriously, this floor and ceiling tensioning, I couldn't think of this... It's so dope, mate! :7) Ta !

But I see the point, it can potentially help to further steer those swingers. Yes, that was the idea ..

One remark... I think the MoI change have to be significant to have the necessary influence, power and acceleration. This comes up usually with these type of devices. But right, that's up for testing and experimenting, and so on... Yes, short and sharp ( aggressive, violent are other words ) - a lazy nudge will not lift the swingers much if at all ..

Oh, that's a great solution! How I hated these cross-overs when it broke for me before... Pain in the A-prime ;7)

* My focus is almost always on WHY a runner should have excess energy, the HOW in my mind is an engineering problem that can be fine tuned and evolve once the WHY has a possible rational theory, IMO ! ..

Awesome, I agree. I developed the same mindset during the years. I'm sure many of us have ..

[Fletcher]

Nice vision of movements and actions!

Right, I see why you designed the counterweight that way, it can further contribute to OOB when the A-structures are swinging on the ascending side.

Another idea is... We can possibly detach the gravitational/driver weight from the wheel environment, and this way it's possible to activate the A-primes any time we want. However, that might be complicated to do, needs some crazy cables and pulleys thing or ramelli/roberval gearing, or whatever ...

So yes, this is a good vision for proper testing. Trying to keep it as simple and uncomplicated as possible atm to get my basic principles communicated - IF they are understood, and I haven't made any show-stopper mistakes in my logic, then mechanical mods and improvements, and other innovations, can follow like night follows day ..

Just starting to prepare some animations of the A-prime ( modified piston ) in action - fwiw much easier to say A-prime than Prime Mover all the time - can't shorten it to PM coz that's taken by Perpetual Motion - back pronto as I can ..

[Fletcher]

Here is an animation of dual opposed A-primes rather than the counter-weighted variety I introduced earlier ..

Mostly nothing surprising here - the A-prime is an inertia controlled " piston " which slows ( is adjustable ) the time taken for its fall and rise up again - this becomes important otherwise can be too fast acting; and has a major contribution to the operating rpm that the wheel theoretically is designed to operate at ..

Note that the A-prime loses and gains again the same GPE ( frictionless sim ) because the angle it fall at, and recovers to ( back on stops ), does not change as the wheel itself is pinned to the wheel support post for this exercise - n.b. it has plenty of inertia ! ..

So we can see the potential for the COM dropping causing torque / acceleration, plus, the MOI change potentially making it easier to rotate the wheel i.e more real acceleration available, to " shake " the swingers ..

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[Fletcher]

Here is the same dual A-prime system but this time unpinned so the wheel disk can rotate CW under torque - n.b. there is no latch or release mechanism to catch the A-prime piston after the arms change sides and it recovers its GPE again .. however I let it swing on so you can see that the inertia arms have a big part to play - also, as a by-the-by, the System KE total at the end of the run is up a Net 2 Newton's and the A-prime is recovered ( no sim frictions ) but this is incidental in the scheme of things ( wheel just began to reverse direction and must lose some GPE to KE ) ..

* So now imagine that it is very close to a Net Zero Energy Transaction Motion of down and up " pump and dump " ..

** And then imagine that all this " shaking and baking " can ONLY raise up the one-way swingers to give CW torque, which also accelerates the system, in my logic and theory of a runner ! .. so theoretically we would have asymmetric quick and continuing wheel acceleration iinm - and a bit of weight here or there does not make any appreciable performance difference ..

ETA 1. all the one-way swingers have to do is give enough positive torque to meet wheel friction losses ( system dissipative losses - try to minimize them ) , after that it can accelerate .. and the A-prime should have the same or slightly less GPE to recover as it is moved on by the acceleration and inertias ..

ETA 2. .. sim attached below ..

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[Gregory]

yeah, Cf's are always there in a dynamic wheel, so why not try and use them - dam reset was always the problem for me when I have had similar thoughts - fwiw about 5 years into this quest I had the idea of using the natural stresses and strains of a dynamic wheel, with additional spring tensioners to help the OOB required - I actually built a small mock-up - my friend from back then Rainer came around and we tinkered away with the design looking for improvements, but no cigar - anyways, instead of using swingers I went for a different approach of a flexible ( deforming ) rim i.e. imagine a rim made of a flex-beam - the falling Driver punched the rim while also squeezing the wheel rim when its fall is arrested - iow's it was an attempt to make a rim circle into an oval, or make the rim have an outward lump in it to cause the actual overbalance torque before it returned to neutral - the theory looked ok to a point, except obviously it was another non-runner - also it didn't have torque from any position - it was my first real attempt to move away from traditional leverage to create overbalance and reset ..

Oh, right... How is Rainer (aka Tinhead) these days? Send my big regards to him! I remember he helped a lot to me back in my early days when I was just a noob with sims and physics. Hope he's fine and everything!

That's a neat idea to flex the rim outward and back.
But guess there wasn't enough force available to do this around all the time. It's still a forceful and forced try, which is always a swing-back...

All up for grabs Gregory - I don't hold a monopoly on innovation and design and all ideas welcome - the point is to solve this runner enigma any way we can ..

I will go into battle some time later, and try to build an all powerful sim wheel based on the A-primes, hah! ;)
But so many possibilities, it's hard to distinguish what would be the better approach. I'm going to meditate on it.
Will see what can I come up with later...

Pain in the A-prime ;7)

Haha, when the sim locked those up... all the time that really was! :D

Anyway, A-primes is officially a word now. As well as A-structures, A-movers, A-components, A-swingers, etc.
Or A-variator, as its primary function is to change MoI. So yeah, no power is given to word repetition anymore...