Osama's Message to America!

[rmd3]

Ovyyus, Thanks for sharing that.

I just feel sad and sick.

Let me give you my Islamic perspective...

While Islamic law does have capital punishment for the adulterer who is caught with the condition that 4 witnesses seeing penetration, it is almost impossible to prove and rarely occurs. As for those who aren't married there is the penalty of being whipped, but I don't know the conditions for it in terms of witnessess and how harsh it should or should not be, but I know it shouldn't be for what that story said. Nobody can be punished for being alone with the opposite sex. That is just something to be avoided.

Some Arabs have a "custom" of honor killing - something Islam forbids. I don't know if the actions in that article are something from Persian culture or a perversion of Islamic law, but it is disgusting!

There was a person at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) that came to the Prophet claiming to have committed adultery and wanted the punishment (stoning to death). The Prophet sent him away, again and again and checked on his mental state. Finally, the Prophet said something like if people commit these acts, let God's hiding of those acts from us be enough (and we will not punish), but if the people come willingly seeking the punishment, then we have to punish them. He also said something like: cover the faults of your fellow muslim, and God will cover your faults. So "moral police" like Iran or Saudi's have is a very very uncomfortable thing and I've not seen anything like it in Islamic history (but I don't know for sure). The Prophet also said make up to 70 excuses for your fellow muslim (if you see them doing something you think is wrong). In other words, keep looking for excuses and don't think bad of people. How did they find out what this girl was allegedly doing? Did they stalk her? That's forbidden in Islam. Did they spy on her? That's forbidden in Islam?

Islamic law requires mercy and leaders with insight and foresight. The punishments in Shariah law should be avoided if there is any room for an excuse. That is what I was taught. That is where innocent until proven guilty is suppose to win the day. Today, it seems ignorant people want to apply these punishments if there is any excuse to do so. This goes back to "Guilty until proven innocent" and it makes me sick, and doesn't help anyone understand anything about Islam. Some so-called muslims need to re-learn their religion.

A judge manipulating records and he is suppose to be religious? Unbelievable. Where is the fear of God?

These people have no right to do that in the name of Islam, and it makes me really pissed off. They should remember that "how you are, God will treat you."

I'll defend Islamic Law properly applied and properly understood, and let me tell you, there is no excuse for this. Call it Iranian law, but don't call it Shariah.

...it is a sad and heartbreaking story.

[winkle]

rmd3 wrote

Islamic law requires mercy and leaders with insight and foresight. The punishments in Shariah law should be avoided if there is any room for an excuse. That is what I was taught. That is where innocent until proven guilty is suppose to win the day. Today, it seems ignorant people want to apply these punishments if there is any excuse to do so. This goes back to "Guilty until proven innocent" and it makes me sick, and doesn't help anyone understand anything about Islam. Some so-called muslims need to re-learn their religion.

A judge manipulating records and he is suppose to be religious? Unbelievable. Where is the fear of God?

that is not about religion it is about power


if God had wanted this world to be run as a theocracy he would most likely have set it up that way from the beginning

near as i can figure free choice is given of God

but now we have these theocracy crackpots deciding they know better than God

millions of people came to America from Europe in the last century to escape the smothering catholic church

if God gives freedom of choice who the heck are all these hypocrites that think they have a better system

there be some that belive there will be a judgement in the after life me being one of them

i also belive many of these do it my way hypocrites are going to feel the brunt of that judgement

the power they used unjustly here is only going to be a witness aganst them there



this also


AN INFORMAL PRAYER -- THE PRAYER OF CYRUS BROWN

“The proper way for a man to pray”
said Deacon Lemuel Keyes,
“and the only proper attitude
is down upon his knees.”

“Nay, I should say the way to pray,”
said Reverend Dr. Wise
“is standing straight with outstrecthed arms
and rapt and upturned eyes.”

“Oh, no, no, no.” said Elder Snow
“Such posture is too proud
A man should pray with eyes fast closed
and head contritely bowed.”

“It seems to me his hands should be
astutely clasped in front.
With both thumbs a pointing toward the ground.”
Said Reverend Hunt.

“Las’ year I fell in Hodgkins well
head first,” said Cyrus Brown,
“With both my heels a-stikin’ up,
my head a-pÂ’inting down,
AnÂ’ I made a prayer right there anÂ’ then;
Best prayer I ever said;
The prayingest prayer I ever prayed,
A-standin on my head.”

Sam Walter Foss


and this


ODIUM THEOLOGICUM

They met and they talked where the crossroads meet,
Four men from the four winds come,
And they talked of the horse, for they loved the theme,
And never a man was dumb.
The man from the North loved the strength of the horse,
And the man from the East his pace,
And the man from the South loved the speed of the horse,
And the man from the West his grace.

So these four men from the four winds come,
Each paused a space in his course
And smiled in the face of his fellow man
And lovingly talked of the horse.
Then each man parted and went his way
As their different courses ran;
And each man journeyed with peace in his heart
And loving his fellow man.

II

They met the next year where the crossroads meet,
Four men from the four winds come:
And it chanced as they met that they talked of God,
And never a man was dumb.
One imagined God in the shape of a man.
A spirit did one insist.
One said that nature itself was God.
One said that he didnÂ’t exist.

They lashed each other with tongues that stung,
That smote as with a rod;
Each glared in the face of his fellow man,
And wrathfully talked of God.
Then each man parted and went his way,
As their different courses ran;
And each man journeyed with wrath in his heart,
And hating his fellow man.

Sam Walter Foss

[digitaljez]

I'll defend Islamic Law properly applied and properly understood, and let me tell you, there is no excuse for this. Call it Iranian law, but don't call it Shariah.

Sharia Law

In terms of the number of people executed by the state in 2004, Iran is estimated to be second only to China.

In the year of Atefah's death, at least 159 people were executed in accordance with the Islamic law of the country, based on the Sharia code.

Since the revolution, Sharia law has been Iran's highest legal authority.
Alongside murder and drug smuggling, sex outside marriage is also a capital crime.

As a signatory of the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights, Iran has promised not to execute anyone under the age of 18.

But the clerical courts do not answer to parliament. They abide by their religious supreme leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, making it virtually impossible for human rights campaigners to call them to account.

CRUELTY OF SHARIA LAW

PENALTIES imposed by Iran's religious mullahs include:

THEFT: Amputation of hands or feet for persistent offenders.

ADULTERY: Death by stoning.

UNMARRIED SEX: 100 lashes.

CONVERSION TO RELIGION OTHER THAN ISLAM: Death.

SODOMY: Death for adults, 74 lashes for consenting child.

LESBIANISM: 100 lashes, or on the fourth occasion death.

HOMOSEXUAL KISS: 60 lashes.

RUBBING ANOTHER MAN'S THIGHS OR BUTTOCKS: 99 lashes - on 4th occasion, death.

Even when properly applied and properly understood Sharia is barbaric by European standards. Dr. Sultan said the world was not witnessing a clash of religions or cultures, but a battle between modernity and barbarism. She bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Quran for 14 centuries.

I don't believe Jesus would be too impressed with the way Christianity has turned out either. However cultures based on religions calling themselves Christian have evolved into kinder more forgiving societies.

When the moral code of a culture shows no compassion it is going to numb the compassion of those who are steeped in it. However, reports do suggest that the Iranian people are offended by this behavior by their mullahs, so there is hope yet. Lets hope human decency can overcome religious dogma.

ODIUM THEOLOGICUM

Brilliant. Thanks for that.

[rmd3]

digitaljez said

When the moral code of a culture shows no compassion it is going to numb the compassion of those who are steeped in it.

I've already explained how Shariah is suppose to be applied, but you bypassed a very key aspect to applying the law and equated stiff penalties with lack of compassion. You also fail to point out that all those crimes involve the integrity of the society.

And so we have open sex outside of marriage rampant in the cultures that evolved from Christianity into kinder more forgiving societies.

And so we have apostasy in the "cultures that evolved from Christianity into kinder more forgiving societies."

And so we have abortion in the "cultures that evolved from Christianity into kinder more forgiving societies."

And so we have increases in divorice in the "cultures that evolved from Christianity into kinder more forgiving societies." (Actually, Islam allows for divorice even though it is disliked, but Christianity clearly forbids it - I guess evolution of culture is in the eye of the beholder).

And so we have drug and alcohol use/abuse in the "cultures that evolved from Christianity into kinder more forgiving societies."

And so we have large numbers of incarcerations in the "cultures that evolved from Christianity into kinder more forgiving societies." Even three pety crimes can get you life in prison in California... some compassion. At least the theif, in Shariah Law, if caught stealing but his basic human needs were not being met and that led him to steal. His hand stays, and there would be questions put to those around him as to why they did not help him.

And so we have in the last 100 years the most killings due to war (or so I have heard - correct me if I am wrong) in the cultures that "evolved from Christianity into kinder more forgiving societies."

Compassion and barbarism are in the eye of the beholder.

I actually don't think the west is devoid of compassion and is certainly not all that barbaric. The above acts are not the vast majority of actions westerns endulge in on a day-to-day basis. What I object to is just slinging the accusation out against Islam as a forgone conclusion and glossing over the aspects of Islam which show otherwise. You think that people in Iran object due to human decency, but you neglect the possibility that they object due to their "dogmatic" understanding of Islam.

My point is this: you can present items in Islamic law you disagree with and prove a point you want to make, but you've bypassed other items that are just as valid and run counter to your point.

[ken_behrendt]

Randall wrote:

(2) As a Muslim, I've never heard anything about Shia plans of uniting tribes. How did you get in the know? I am a Sunni, but I think I would have heard something before you. Another thing, I have never had anybody come to me asking to help form a Caliphate. Tell us, how would Bin Laden set up such a Caliphate when he doesn't seem to have the supporters for making that happen, and the vast majority of Muslims do not support terrorism?

First, let me emphasize that my posts in this thread are strictly my opinions of the geopolitcal situations around the world based on the sum total of the available data that I take in during the days prior to a post. My sources are cable news shows, current event discussion type shows, what knowledge I have of religions, and my intuition about what motivates people. I do not claim to be infallible...I'm quite content to be correct more than 50% of the time.

Osama's long range goal is to lay the ground work for a "Caliphate" or worldwide Muslim Super Power that will span all the way from Morrocco in the West to the Philippines in the East. It will be exclusively muslim and have a Taliban style theocratic government which will practice the harshest forms of Sharia Law.

His biggest problem, of course, is that, currently, Sunnis and Shia are about as mixable as oil and water. To achieve such a worldwide state, he realizes that the sectarian violence between these divisions in Islam must be eliminated. To truly achieve his goal, he must find a way to heal the division and unite all muslims within a single belief system (his own, of course).

One way to unite the muslim world is through their common hatred of the presence of the state of Israel and the West's support for this small democracy. That is why I believe that there is kind of union of effort underway in the Middle East right now between Iran, Al Qaeda, and the various "freedom" fighters in the countries surrounding Israel.

Iran supplies the freedom fighters with the weapons and technical support so that they can launch provocative attacks on Israel. This strengthens Iran's dominance in the region. Israel then reacts with counter attacks that cause much "collateral" damage (i.e., the deaths of innocent non-combatant civilians) which increases muslim hatred toward Israel and helps to unify Sunnis and Shia. This makes Osama happy and allows him to increase his influence in the region.

Right now, the muslim world is at a sort of crossroad in its history. It will either follow the path preferred by the West and the majority of rational muslims and all muslim countries will embrace secular democratic governments which will still allow and protect the rights of their citizens to practice the religion of their choice...or no religion at all. Or, the small minority of radical, irrational, revenge obsessed, death welcoming muslims will drive the muslim world back in time by about 1200 years to a worldwide Caliphate that will allow a small percentage of powerful individuals to control the lives and destinies of about a billion people. And, with nuclear technology, threaten the security of the rest of the non-muslim world.

In a sense, the radical jihadists are truly like a cancer on the religion of Islam and that cancer will destroy the body of that noble religion IF nothing is done to stop it. I have no doubt that it will be stopped just as the Nazis in WWII were eventually stopped. But, sadly, the cost in lives will be high...



Well, the "conflict" in Lebanon is now on the verge of further expansion...exactly as I predicted a few weeks ago. The Israeli's just dismissed one of their top generals and have replaced him with someone who intends to take a far more aggressive stance on the ground. It also seems that the days of high collateral damage aerial bombings are drawing to a close. Now the Israeli's are going to have to fight their way, mile by bloody mile, to the Litani River which is supposed to mark the northernmost border of the "Buffer Zone" they want to occupy.

Naturally, I do not expect it to end there. No, it will soon dawn on the Israeli generals that nothing short of a complete occupation of Lebanon will do when one is dealing with an entrenched military force like Hezbollah. Forget all of the "noise" you are hearing about on the news about UN Resolutions, cease fires, diplomacy, etc. The Israeli's now have a tiger by the tail and can settle for nothing short of COMPLETE victory. Any kind of cease fire deal that leaves Hezbollah intact with most of its weapons will be hailed by their leader, Hassan Nasrallah, as a "victory" against Israel and will only encourage and invite future aggression against Israel.


On another front, the British had to shut down Heathrow Airport outside of London yesterday! Apparently, they had uncovered a plot by Al Qaeda operatives to blow up a series of jumbo jets over the Atlantic Ocean using some sort of liquid explosive derived from TATP or triacetone triperoxide. This is a simple to make high explosive that can be made from commonly available materials. However, it is usually a pliable white solid material. The terrorists must have found a way to liquify it and were going to smuggle it aboard the jets in carry-on luggage disquised as such things as shampoo or baby food! Now, the airlines in Britain and the US will not allow anyone to board a plane with any sort of liquid except for baby food which must be tested before it is allowed through. Even without blowing up a single plane, the terrorists have succeeded in increasing the costs and inconveniences associated with air travel...as though moving at hundreds of miles per hour at 35 thousand feet was not stressful enough!



ken

[ovyyus]

Even three pety crimes can get you life in prison in California... some compassion.

While I'm not about to argue in favour of how Californian laws are enforced, I have to say that at the very least a life lived in incarceration is still a life non-the-less. IMO, terminating someone's life, especially for petty crimes such as adultery and chastity, apostacy, abortion (figure that one out), alcohol/drug abuse, etc, IS barbaric and wrong - whatever the country.

I think freedom of speech and religion for all is the ultimate sales pitch for any society.

[Michael]

They lashed each other with tongues that stung,
That smote as with a rod;
Each glared in the face of his fellow man,
And wrathfully talked of God.
Then each man parted and went his way,
As their different courses ran;
And each man journeyed with wrath in his heart,
And hating his fellow man.

And this is a tail of this and that,
of Grace and then disgrace.

It's power that pulls the four winds forth,
to that special meeting place.

And power balances, so power turns,
the fourfold paths await.

It's nature that what binds err all,
this ever occuring fate.

[rmd3]

Harsh penalties are indicative of the value of the things the society is trying to protect.

If people really think adultery, abortion, and apostasy are petty, then that shows the value they place on marriage, life, and religion. That was exactly my point, those things aren't valued so the "highly evolved enlightened and modern societies" have lessened the punishment for those crimes. Remember Digitialjez said...

When the moral code of a culture shows no compassion it is going to numb the compassion of those who are steeped in it.

If the people have no compassion for marraige, the unborn child, or preserving their faith-based society, then it won't feel anything for violating those things. There's hope though, some people in those societies still have human decency, or is it dogmatic theology?

If I accept that those things are petty crimes as you claim, what's wrong with killing an apostate who is out trying to convert the society from the dominant religion - it's just a very late term abortion!?!?!

[rmd3]

someone wrote...

And each man journeyed with wrath in his heart,
And hating his fellow man.

or each man journeyed with compassion in his heart
and pity for his fellow man.

I said I wasn't going to reply and rather than get the Mrs. upset, I really must stop now. If you see me write a reply, please politely tell me to get off the board because I'm busy. Thanks! And stop hitting nerves that compel me to respond! :)

PS. This is for you, Ken.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060814/n ... an_zionism

[winkle]

Harsh penalties are indicative of the value of the things the society is trying to protect.

If I accept that those things are petty crimes as you claim, what's wrong with killing an apostate who is out trying to convert the society from the dominant religion - it's just a very late term abortion!?!?!

you seem to think everyone needs to toe the line

being an apostate can it be assumed that you have offered you're self up for execution

with such strong conviction i just feel you would not want a personal execption

[rmd3]

Oh I found these interesting links and I have a few minutes to type...

Ken,
Please consider the following...

9 minutes of Sky News... watch the clip. http://redstateson.blogspot.com/2006/08 ... ee-tv.html

specifically, review this particularly interesting article...
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/iran.html
go to the main page of that link for more info.

Winkle,
Islam was criticized here. I offered counter arguments. Take 'em or leave 'em.
-Randall

[rlortie]

from a friend, who says:
This was just sent to me and it's profound, short and sweet

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul;
The other for your freedom

I expand on this and say it applies to the soldiers of any country fighting for freedom.

Ralph

[Michael]

Edit.

[ken_behrendt]

Randall...

Thanks for the links. I find them interesting and intend to read through them.


Well, I find it difficult to believe that I am the only persn on planet Earth that noticed the "timing" of the last Al Qaeda orchestrated terror extravanza...the plot for the midair destruction of ten jumbo jets flying from London to New York over the Atlantic Ocean. Those jets, of course, all had American sounding names like "American Airlines", "United", etc.

The London anti-terrorist authorities supposedly took action on Thursday, August 10th to stop the plot when they intercepted a cell phone call that told one of the leaders of the plot that they should "destroy the planes now". Supposedly, the plot was immediately stopped with the arrest of dozens of participants who were only hours away from executing it!

Anyway, Thursday, August 10th was the 222nd day of this year! There's that number again...222. In the number obsessed minds of the fanatical religious leaders of Al Qaeda, that number is "magical" and associated with the United States. To launch an attack on that day, they believe, will be particularly damaging to the United States as a world power.

For one thing, 222 can be rewritten as 2/22 which, of course, is the birthday of General, later first President, George Washington, considered by many to be the "father" of the United States of America. There are also associations between 222 and a "vision" which Washington actually had. The reader interested in more details about this "vision" might want to read an article on my website (www.cosmicvault.com) titled "Decoding the Great Seal of the United States".


Anyway, there seems to be some apparent movement toward a cease fire between the Israeli's and Hezbollah. The UN Security Council just, surprisingly, unaminously passed Resolution 1701 and it seems like both the Lebanese and Israeli governments are in favor of it. All that Hezbollah's leader has said is that he will obey what the Lebanese government tells him to do. On the surface it sounds good and the Israeli's have even said that they will unilaterally stop all offensive actions tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. local time.

Of course, I do not expect this to last very long. Cease fires are common in the Middle East...lasting ones are rare.

In all likelihood, the Israeli's will stop for a while, but the rockets from Hezbollah will continue to pound northern Israeli cities. Then, the UN will not allow peacekeeping forces into the region because it is still too dangerous. At that point, Israel will finally realize that nothing short of the complete destruction of Hezbollah will suffice. Leaving most of their military force and supply of rockets intact will be unacceptable. Israeli forces will, ultimately, have to scour the entire country of Lebanon with ground troops and destroy any caches of weapons and attacking Hezbollah fighters wherever they encounter them.

I expect the conflict to rage on for months to come...



ken

[winkle]

Winkle,
Islam was criticized here. I offered counter arguments. Take 'em or leave 'em.
-Randall

most people will excuse them selfs while finding no excuse for others

perhaps you're zeal for killing apostates might be along the lines of amnesty for you and the other would be killers

just kill them that don't submit to you're thoughts and ideas

you don't seem to realize that you are speaking for a system that would already have taken you're life if it were enforced and you would not be here to advocate for anything

same old crap everyone but you and those that you ally you're self with should be submissive or dead

perhaps you just prefer a religion with a full set of teeth and a hand full of rocks as long as you're not on the receiving end

i will not say hypocrite even though i would like to