A Picture of JEEB's Axle.

[Vic Hays]

Tapered axles in half round housings would have made the wheel self centering and would have allowed the wheel to be portable from one support stand to another. The half bushing pieces would allow the axle to be viewed to ascertain that there was no drive mechanism enclosed to power the wheel. Half bushings are not at all an unusual type of bearing. I machined some for a diesel electric locomotive once. They allow easy access for lubrication and work fine for bearings subject to loads from one direction such as supporting a gravity wheel.

[ken_behrendt]

Thanks, Vic...

Nice to read that someone here finds merit in my interpretation of the bearings Bessler used...

ken

[ovyyus]

I think an open half bearing (bush) supporting the axle pin would have dispelled suspicions about the wheel being driven at the axle. Also, the applied wheel loads are depicted pulling downward on the axle, which would be consistent with an open half bearing suppprt. Exactly how the bearing/pin/support beam was setup is obviously open to speculation though.

[rlortie]

ken,

Your Quote

Ultimately, I have to consider this discussion of the methods Bessler may or may not have employed to support his rotating wheels somewhat of a side issue. The real mystery we have to solve is what was going on inside of the drums of his wheels...

This has been my point all along. The concept that I have had so much trouble attempting to explain would take the place of the pendulums that were not there. The effect would throw the wheel of balance placing its COG in a dynamic motion where as interior weights would shift.

I feel that we have discussed this approach enough and those who can understand it may or may not find the idea useful.

Vic,
So you are a half bushing maker for locomotives. How many old timers are out there that can remember when all railroad trucks were supported by half bushings. Better known as pillow blocks. The axle was actually on the bottom and the pillow block carried the weight of the car. This was all enclosed in a box that had a door on the face. The door would lift up where as grease and packing were stuffed around the bottom side of axle. Some times these boxes did not get packed as often as they should and that would cause a "Hot box"

Ralph

[Vic Hays]

I'm pretty old, but not quite that old. I have seen the setup to machine the pillow blocks. Babbitt was poured into the casing and then machined to size on a horizontal mill with a boring bar in the spindle. Those old Babbitt bearings were nearly as efficient as the newer roller bearings. There was more friction starting up, but once the oil film was established they were easy turning.

[rlortie]

Vic,

Good reply and right on! Henry Ford produced thousands of model "T's" and all had babbitt main and rod bearings. Babbitt an alloy of lead, tin and antimony was invented here in the USA.

In Bessler's time it was Pewter, which contains the same alloy in different percentages.

Ralph

[ken_behrendt]

Ralph...

You wrote:

This has been my point all along. The concept that I have had so much trouble attempting to explain would take the place of the pendulums that were not there. The effect would throw the wheel of balance placing its COG in a dynamic motion where as interior weights would shift.

So, why not make a Paint sketch or two for us illustrating what you are getting at? A picture is worth a 1000 words...

ken

[turulato]

Ralph:

I love the way your brain works.
You understand it so well.

You said; "The effect would throw the wheel of balance placing its COG in a dynamic motion where as interior weights would shift. "


We just need to find out what kind of mechanism that is. Minor detail. :^)

Turulato

[/quote] sorry, don't know how to insert quotes and can't get rid of the brackets.

[ken_behrendt]

turulato...

Quoting someone else is easy...once you get the hang of it.

When you see a line of text in someone else's post that you want to quote, just move your cursor to the immediate right of the first word of the line and then press and hold the left button on your mouse as you move the cursor down until it reaches the end of the line. That action will highlight all of the text in the line. Then, press Ctrl + C and that entire chunk of text will be temporarily stored in the Clipboard memory. Note that you can only store one quote at a time in the Clipboard memory.

Later, as you are working on your post on the Post Editor Page's text field and want to insert the line(s) of text being held in Clipboard, simply place the cursor were you want the text to appear in the post and press Ctrl + V. The text will then appear on the text field of the Post Editor Page.

Now, you can make it look even fancier. After the text is sitting on the text field of the Post Editor Page, once again use your mouse to highlight the text in exactly the same manner that you did when you were first copying it into the Clipboard memory. This time, however, after the text to be quoted is highlighted, move your cursor to the tool bar immediately above the field that you are composing your post in and left click the button labeled "Quote". That will but the appropriate BBC code at the beginning and end of your quote and when you Preview the post prior to Submitting it you will see that nice little "Quote Box" around the quoted text.

When I first joined this Discussion Board, I found the process somewhat confusing and a little intimidating, but, as in most things in life, practice makes perfect...

ken

[rlortie]

Ken,
It is even easier to left hold. drag to highlight, right click hit copy. open reply or post editor place curser, right click and left click copy, then go to tool bar and left click "quote" This way you can forget about moving from key board to mouse, back and forth.

As for a paint sketch, How hard is it to imagine a tapered shaft stuck far enough into a round hole in a round bushing causing bushing to turn with shaft. Once this point is achieved imagine that the bushing has increased the diameter of shaft by turning with it. If shaft is 3/4" and bushing outer diameter is 1-1/2" you have doubled the radius. I will leave it up to the math boys to calculate the increase in circumference, which will give distance travelled in one revolution.

After you are able to perceive this then I will be happy to start once again explaining the next phase.

THe paint sketch of your present pendulum shows it all. Just imagine that your rolling ball is the bushing riding in half circle grooves or channel. just as you ball is doing. As the axis climbs it throws the wheel sideways as a

"crab walks"

While it is in this inclined plane, acting as its own pendulum the vertical COG is also thrown off. Interior weight are now allowed or forced to seek equilibrium which they never do as now the axle is stuck into the bushing on the back side, repeating the process. and this is referred to as a dynamic and/or chaotic force.

I hope this clears it up for you, hopefully by using your own drawing this will make it more easy to understand that a bushing can turn in a race. A race is that outer part of a bearing that carries the transferance of weight. A pillow block can be called a race.

I am not arguing that this is how Bessler's wheel worked. I only describe it as a possible solution to achieve a working wheel

Enclosing the above quote and bold underlined statement was achieved without using any keys on the key board.

Ralph

[ken_behrendt]

Ralph...

Yes, I understand that you want to press a cylindrical metal piece of larger diameter down over the tapered end of the steel pivot so that the two pieces rotate together. Once this is done, however, I do not think it is appropriate to refer to the second cylindrical piece that extends the radius of the steel pivot as a "bushing" anymore. It now becomes just an extension of the pivot.

Next, you want to have this extension piece of the pivot somehow rotating around in a race which I assume is supposed to be a half circle.

Then you wrote:

While it is in this inclined plane, acting as its own pendulum the vertical COG is also thrown off. Interior weight are now allowed or forced to seek equilibrium which they never do as now the axle is stuck into the bushing on the back side, repeating the process. and this is referred to as a dynamic and/or chaotic force.

I do not understant what you are trying to describe here...


ken

[rlortie]

Ken,

I do not understant what you are trying to describe here...

Attached is a quick paint sketch that I hope will help. Its obvious that no one is interested in this approach. Therefore I see no need to waste much time with it.

When the bushing is seized to the tapered pin causing it to turn does not imply that it is not still a bushing. You have simply converted its Bearing transference from the inside to the outside. Either way it still rides in the race. If one wants to be technical, I guess you could say that it is a bushing and then a bearing.

What if Bessler's 8" diameter axle did not penetrate wheel and what I depict here is the grindstone inner wheel. That which is describe as half circle grooves would have been full circle cut half deep into the ends of axle half's supported by outer canvas covered wheel with solid rim.

Once again. I do not say this is how it was, but only an idea of how it could possibly work.

Ralph

[ken_behrendt]

Ralph...

Ahhhh...that's much better. Even with that quick sketch you attached, I am starting to get an idea of what you are proposing. Yes, by using eccentric steel pivots it would be possible to make a large drum's plane wobble as the drum rotated.

Now, all you have to do is figure out a way to use that wobble to shift the weights on the descending side of the wheel farther from the axle or the weights on the ascending side closer to the axle (or both!).

Of course, this can not be the method Bessler used because his wheels were not reported to wobble in operation.

ken

[rlortie]

Ken,

I have stated that this may not be Besslers wheel worked but for you to say.

Of course, this can not be the method Bessler used because his wheels were not reported to wobble in operation.

I feel that once again you are closing your mind to assumptions and probables as only one person was allowed an inside peek, and he ain't talking. We do not know what went on behind pulled canvas. If the argument about a wheel within a wheel were ever to be settled then I would consider revising my "what if's".

If such a described grindstone wheel were present and carried the weight comparable to a grindstone, and were allowed the chaotic horizontal and compound vertical motion as I have tried to explain, Then I feel that it is possible to achieve a non-balance state that is repetitive.

In the meantime I shall work on the JK wheel and designs of other forum members who have disclosed their ideas for me to fabricate. My own three in progress wheel designs are currently gathering dust due to my backlog of helping others

Ralph

[Ed]

Ken,

I agree with Ralph. Many times you make this statement "Obviously this can not be what Bessler used..." and it's getting old. Can't you just say things like IMHO? (In my humble opinion for Ralph ;-)

BTW, have you read John Collins AP and DT yet?

Obviously Ralph's drawing is exaggerated to show the idea and if Bessler used such a thing then it could have been done less obvious.

-Ed