The joy of not knowing

[Michael]

>>it was never created.<
That doesn't make sense. If the universe was never created, then it has existed for an infinity of time before now.

It makes perfect sense. In my opinion it's the only thing that makes total sense.


> and could not possibly be increasing as we observe it to, even if the universe were infinite in size, because it would have already reached the 'outer limits' of infinity.

Edit; Outer limits of infinity? That doesn't make sense. I realize you mean a state of complete entropy.
Here's my answer and view.

Not true at all. If the universe is infinite and potential is infinite who's to really say what all of the possible manifested forms of the universe across the infinite whole are? Our view of the universe may have come from a big bang of sorts but whos to say that it wasn't a convergence of mass and energy on a much more massive level? If the universe is infinite then a lot of it would be pressurized. But it would also contain, as it does, cyclic systems that move or generate seperation causing a reforming of difference. Our world is generally pressurized, excluding seasons and other forms of difference that arise from cyclic systems. If you create a large explosion, say from T.N.T. the matter and the potential in area where the explosion came from moves outwards, creating a vacuum in the area where the matter once was. Difference is formed. Who's to say our portion universe hadn't come about from something like this? The fact that it seems as if our universe is still expanding could just be the force from the explosion is still occuring. The fact that it seems like the expansion is accelerating could be any number of things, any of which could be valid.

[SeaWasp]

And the common denominator is "theory". We all theorise and draw our own conlusions in trying to understand the cosmos! The truth is that the Cosmos is a lot bigger, mystical and more complicated then any "human" can hope to comprehend! Well.. so far in our evolution anyway!

[Jonathan]

Ralph, the coin is usually buried deeper, but that is because everyone lives in fertile areas, where there is constant application of plant matter and stuff from above. But that stuff comes from somewhere; both from below the coin (plant roots take stuff from underneath and deposit it above), and from other places that are actively loosing material (the surface erodes, previously buried things surface, etc).
>You've demonstrated that you do not lack imagination.<
I was hoping you'd give me an alternative.
>Edit; Outer limits of infinity? That doesn't make sense. I realize you mean a state of complete entropy.<
That's why I put it in apostrophies; the idea taken literally is a paradox, so I was just conveying a sense of it. I said and implied nothing about entropy.
>The fact that it seems as if our universe is still expanding<
I made no reference to that actual expansion of the universe. I made implicit reference to the expansion of our light-cone. Remember that rulers expand as the universe expands, so if the universe has always existed, then it would always appear to be the same size, despite cosmic 'expansion'. But it is observed to expand, not because of a physical change in volume, but because of the ever widening light-cone. Our light-cone would only be seen to expand if the universe is of finite age.
An oversimplied version of my point is that if the universe has always existed and is infinite in size, then we'd be blinded and burned to death 24 hours a day by the radiation from every star that exists.

[coylo]

I once watched a documentary about how everything seemed to be just right...........just right and cosy for life on earth to exist, for galaxies to form the way they do and for everything in the universe to be "hunky dory", because for example if the force of gravity was slightly stronger or weaker it could cause our galaxy to implode or fall apart respectively (according to the documentary).

Now why was this the case?.............the scientists in the documentary conluded that this was either an extreme bit of good fortune or the alternative (something that I was surprised that they were so open-minded about) that there was a "grand architect" that arranged it so - A God.

[Michael]

>That's why I put it in apostrophies; the idea taken literally is a paradox, so I was just conveying a sense of it. I said and implied nothing about entropy.

Your statement was a paradox Jonathan, not necessarily the idea.

>I made no reference to that actual expansion of the universe. I made implicit reference to the expansion of our light-cone.
I didn't see it like that. Please explain in the future in more detail if you can. :)
> Remember that rulers expand as the universe expands, so if the universe has always existed, then it would always appear to be the same size, despite cosmic 'expansion'.

True our rulers also expand. Your not taking into account the explosion model I roughly mentioned in my post though.

>But it is observed to expand, not because of a physical change in volume, but because of the ever widening light-cone. Our light-cone would only be seen to expand if the universe is of finite age.
Why?

> An oversimplied version of my point is that if the universe has always existed and is infinite in size, then we'd be blinded and burned to death 24 hours a day by the radiation from every star that exists.

We're not blinded or burned to death by every star that exists now though. Infinite size, or a confined space, why would it make a difference? A light bulb generating heat contained within a box can be made to be the same in tempreture as several bulbs in an even greater box.

[rlortie]

coylo,

Got a point for you and all to ponder. Mans self egocentric mind, first lead him to believe that the universe revolved around the earth and that we were the center of all.

You stated above <just right and cosy for life on earth to exist,> now could that not say that life is just right and cosy to exist on earth. Was the earth designed for us or were we designed for it. I would say the latter.

Ralph

[SeaWasp]

What came first? The chicken or the egg? Ponder that one! lol!

[rlortie]

sea wasp,

Dont have to even think about it.

You wrote about the chicken or the egg, I have the answer to this age old puzzle.

A chicken and an egg are lying in bed. The chicken is leaning against

the headboard smoking a cigarette, with a satisfied smile on its face.

The egg, looking a bit pissed off, grabs the sheet, rolls over, and

says, "Well, I guess we finally answered THAT question."

[SeaWasp]

ROTFLMOL!! Good comeback! Touche'

[Michael]

Edit

[coylo]

Yes Ralph, I agree (because the other option seems like a religious point of view), we were designed for it and for it only as it would seem. If life on earth put on its shorts and went to Mercury, or got its coat and went to Pluto, how long do you think our design would last then?

Hmmmm, I think I've forgotten my point..... lol.
That's what this thread does to ya!

[Jonathan]

Coylo, I we discussed this a just a bit ago. I said that if the universe weren't just right for us, we wouldn't be around to ponder why.
>Your not taking into account the explosion model<
I did, I dismissed it as irrelevant though: "But it is observed to expand, not because of a physical change in volume,..."
>>Our light-cone would only be seen to expand if the universe is of finite age.<
Why?<
I already explained that, but I will rephrase it. The radius of the light-cone is equal to the speed of light times the age of the universe. If the universe was never created, then it has always existed. If it has always existed, then the age of the universe, right now, is infinite. The speed of light times infinity is infinity, so the light-cone is infinitely big. But the light-cone is observed to be finite, so the universe must be of finite age.

[coylo]

This thread is growing too fast for me to keep up Jonathan. I don't read everything on this site, like Ed said, If he did that he'd probably go insane.

Sometimes I get the vibe the way the thread is going and just comment/post without having really read it. .........Not good - I know!...and probably direspectful to the intellects that post here.

[Michael]

>

I already explained that, but I will rephrase it. The radius of the light-cone is equal to the speed of light times the age of the universe. If the universe was never created, then it has always existed. If it has always existed, then the age of the universe, right now, is infinite. The speed of light times infinity is infinity, so the light-cone is infinitely big. But the light-cone is observed to be finite, so the universe must be of finite age.

How is the radius of the lightcone measured?

[Jonathan]

I'm not sure; as I told Bill, "I'd have to get degrees in astrophysics, nuclear physics, geology and paleontology so I could analyse the data myself". And God help me, I probably will.