Osama's Message to America!

[AgingYoung]

Michael,

True followers of Christ have never been associated with "lieing, stealing, cheating, raping, pillaging and murder" nor will they ever be associated with such things

Fine point, Michael. There are few radical christians today. A radical follower of Jesus would do what Jesus did. In one example he washed the disciples feet. In the ultimate example he allowed his enemies to rip his back off while he prayed to God to forgive them. That's a radical christian.

On the other hand a radical muslim would follow mohammed's instructions from the quran.

5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.
5:52 Those in whose hearts is a disease

or this piece of quranic love:

Ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!--2:65

Gene

[AgingYoung]

Ken,
The last few posts were a response to the rude attempt to derail my question to you with a Tu quoque (you too) fallacy. I still have that question, Ken. Can you defend your statement:

Actually, Islam is supposed to be a pacifist type religion that stresses tolerance and good will toward non-muslims. It is only supposed to resort to violence when the practice or very existence of the faith is directly threatened by an aggressor.

My question is, 'since when?'
Gene

[terry5732]

You'll have to excuse him, it was the mercury typing.

[ken_behrendt]

Gene asked:

I still have that question, Ken. Can you defend your statement (with regard to the pacifist nature of true Islam)...

Here's a site that goes into the pacifist nature of Islam in some detail:


http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/ ... islam.html

According to the Koran, war represents an "unwanted obligation" which has to be absolutely carried out with strict observance of particular humane and moral values and resorted only when it is inevitable.

In a verse, it is explained that those who start wars are the disbelievers and that God does not approve wars:

Â…Each time they kindle the fire of war, Allah extinguishes it. They rush about the earth corrupting it. Allah does not love corrupters. (Surat al-Ma'ida: 64)

A closer examination of Prophet Muhammad's life reveals that war is a method resorted for defensive purposes only in unavoidable situations.

The revelation of the Koran to Prophet Muhammad lasted for 23 years. During the first 13 years of this period, Muslims lived as a minority under a pagan rule in Mecca and faced much oppression. Many Muslims were harassed, abused, tortured, and even murdered, their houses and possessions were plundered. Despite this however, Muslims led their lives without resorting to any violence and always called pagans to peace.

When the oppression of pagans escalated unbearably, Muslims emigrated to the town of Yathrib, which was later to be renamed Medina, where they could establish their own order in a more friendly and free environment. Even establishing their own political system did not prompt them to take up weapons against aggressive pagans of Mecca. Only after the following revelation, the Prophet commanded his people to get prepared for war:

Permission to fight is given to those who are fought against because they have been wronged - truly God has the power to come to their support - those who were expelled from their homes without any right, merely for saying, 'Our Lord is God'Â… (Surat al-Hajj: 39-40)

In brief, Muslims were allowed to wage war only because they were oppressed and subjected to violence. To put it in another way, God granted permission for war only for defensive purposes. In other verses, Muslims are warned against use of unnecessary provocation or unnecessary violence:

Fight in the Way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. God does not love those who go beyond the limits. (Surat al-Baqara: 190)

After the revelations of these verses, wars occurred between Muslims and pagan Arabs. In none of these wars, however, were the Muslims the inciting party. Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad established a secure and peaceful social environment for Muslims and pagans alike by signing a peace agreement (Hudaybiya) which conceded to the pagans most of their requests. The party who violated the terms of the agreement and started a new war was again the pagans. However, with rapid conversions into Islam, the Islamic armies attained great power against the pagan Arabs and Prophet Muhammad conquered Mecca without bloodshed and in a spirit of tolerance. If he willed, he could have taken revenge on pagan leaders in the city. Yet, he did not do harm to any one of them, forgave them and treated them with the utmost tolerance. Pagans, who would later convert to Islam by their own will, could not help admiring such noble character of the Prophet.

The Islamic principles God proclaims in the Koran account for this peaceful and temperate policy of Prophet Muhammad. In the Koran, God commands believers to treat even the non-Muslims kindly and justly:

...God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you over religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just. God merely forbids you from taking as friends those who have fought you over religion and driven you from your homes and who supported your expulsion... (Surat al-Mumtahana: 8-9)

The verses above specify the outlook of a Muslim on non-Muslims: A Muslim should treat all non-Muslims kindly and avoid making friends only with those who show enmity to Islam. In case this enmity causes violent attacks against the existence of Muslims, that is, in case they wage a war against them, then Muslims should respond them justly by considering the humane dimensions of the situation. All forms of barbarism, unnecessary acts of violence and unjust aggression are forbidden by Islam. In another verse, God warns Muslims against this and explains that rage felt for enemies should not cause them to drift them into injustice:

You who believe! Show integrity for the sake of God, bearing witness with justice. Do not let hatred for a people incite you into not being just. Be just. That is closer to heedfulness. Heed God (alone). God is aware of what you do. (Surat al-Ma'ida: 8)

Well, I hope this will clear up this matter about the pacifist nature of true Islam. What the terrorists are practicing is NOT true Islam despite their appearance of sanctity!


terry5732...

No, it was not "the mercury talking"...just a knowledge of the historical facts...



ken

[AgingYoung]

Ken,

Well, I hope this will clear up this matter about the pacifist nature of true Islam.

Actually it does, Ken. Muslims are pacifists when it's convenient yet when it isn't they reserve the right to abandon that idea. Sometime when I slow down I want to examine the crusades in more detail.

The Crusades were a series of several military campaigns—usually sanctioned by the Papacy—that took place during the 11th through 13th centuries.

...from wikipedia.
What I'd like to examine are the campaigns. As I understand it one was in Spain and the Spaniards with the use of their armor defeated the muslims thereby keeping them from sweeping thru all of europe. If you're a pacifist I don't know how you could justify that sort of conquest.

My understanding of islam is summed up by the icon on the saudi flag: A sword. Islam has spread thru the use of the sword. A friend of mine is a hindu from India and that's his understanding of islam from his cultural perspective also. He come to that conclusion based on his education in India. Muslims tell a different story and I notice that you got your facts from an islamic site. Even though your facts are a little biased they tend to support my point that islam has a tendency to pick up the sword from time to time. I wonder what any spaniard could add to this topic.

Gene

[ken_behrendt]

Gene...

I think that when it comes to history, there will always be a variety of opinions as to who started a conflict. Everybody or group always seeks to seize the high moral ground and try to justify their actions by painting the other guy as the "evil doer" that is responsible for the whole mess. I think someone once said that "In any war, truth is the first causalty".

Historians could spend the rest of eternity trying to accurately fix blame for different historical conflicts such as religious wars, etc. In reality, there is probably much blame to go around.

Perhaps, in the beginning, a member of one tribe was accidentally killed by a member from a different local tribe. Then the other tribe decided, in the name of "justice" to even the score, but, in the process, killed two members of the first tribe. The first tribe then responded by killing 4 members of the second tribe, and so on.

Each tribe thinks its obtaining justice and teaching the other one that a response will only lead to more loss of life.

Over time, as the bloodshed continues from generation to generation, the two tribes develop different religious beliefs. Then the new contest is to see which tribe can prove to the other that it's particular deity is the most powerful. This begins the process of religious warfare which can be socialized into each new generation's members as a "duty" to their god or as a form of "patriatism" to their tribe's territory.

I think that much of the world today is based on this kind of continued intergenerational hatred and intolerance. The only solution I see is to try to educate people worldwide to the various social and psychological factors which lead to conflict between countries, religions, classes, etc. and point out the continuing folly that can result from them.

I think one way would be to derive some sort of worldwide religion that would be based more on morality and ethics and less on history (usually bad history) and prophecy (all false so far). Maybe in that way, the bloodshed will finally diminish and we can truly feel like we live in a safe world. Eventually, I see the world also having a single language, currency, and central government. People will be able to travel freely from one former country into another without the need for such things as passports.

Can it happen? I think that now with the advent of the internet and the risk of total nuclear annihilation ever present that the prospects for such a future world are greater than ever. Maybe in another couple of centuries it will be here...


ken

[AgingYoung]

Ken,

I think that when it comes to history, there will always be a variety of opinions as to who started a conflict.

When someone is so far from home engaged in war I think that's quite a statement particularly in the days when you had to either ride a horse or walk to get there.

I think that much of the world today is based on this kind of continued intergenerational hatred and intolerance.

I've known two very educated and successful businessmen from Persia (as they like to call it) or Iran. They find it amusing that Americans aren't steeped in world history. They actually are very knowledgable about the matter and know what the 'score' is between nations. You might say they hold trans-generational grudges. It could be that a little ignorance would go a long way toward peace.

I think one way would be to derive some sort of worldwide religion that would be based more on morality and ethics and less on history (usually bad history) and prophecy (all false so far).

If John the Revelator is correct you will see that. In addition a one world government and currency. The currency will be virtual.

Gene

[fAtnhapy]

History is written by the victors. :0)
fAt

[ken_behrendt]

The only problem I see with a "United World" approach to life on Earth is what do we do with the small percentage of individuals that decide that they do not like the scheme or want to participate in it? I mean, even if we could achieve some idyllic state that met everybody's needs and promoted peace and prosperity, there would always be a small percentage of people who were not content with it and did not want to live in it.

Perhaps, even after such a utopian system is achieved, we should keep one continent or other large territory that does not partake in the new order. It could further be divided down into individual countries that would each have their own governmental/economic systems. Any citizen of Earth would be free to migrate to any of the countries in this separate territory and anybody in that territory would be free to return to the United World system at any time. Maybe we could use some currently uninhabited part of South America or Africa for this.

And, of course, we would maintain communication between both worlds so that both could continue to learn from each other. If some system in one of the countries of the separated system proved beneficial, then, perhaps, it could be adopted by the United World system and vice versa.

I know a lot of Christian fundamentalists will immediately jump up and say such a worldwide social experiment would have to be the fulfillment of the Book of Revelation and that the end was near. However, after a few centuries of the United World experiment, I suspect that the majority of people on Earth would, if polled, wonder how we had gotten along without it in the past.

In a world freed of poverty, desperation, fear, and slaughter, who knows what heights of scientific and technical achievement humanity might achieve!


ken

[Trev]

Bill - You are the lone voice of reason :)

Sounds like you could do with a laugh, have a read of this -

Looniest Of All 911
Conspiracy Theories

[ovyyus]

LMAO Trev - nice one.

[racer270]

trev and Bill, that's only humorous because you don't have to live in this country.

I do believe that article has a lot of merit i.e. no plane or the debris of a jetliner was ever found. Some of the people on the ground described it as being the size of a small plane.
and one more fact that escapes people is that the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania had flown back and forth across Ohio, which is about 400 miles each direction, then came the infamous"let's roll" statement that was supposed to been made by passengers that attacked the hijackers and drove the plane into the ground.....!what a crock...........why was the tail section of the plane miles from the impact zone where the plane nose dive in.....????
frankly I believe the plane shot down by the US military.
a couple hours of flight time over the state of Ohio and show you that there are military bases with F-16s on the ready that could be airborne in a matter of minutes not hours. And military bases in Ohio are almost everywhere.......!

I have personally witnessed a jetliner crash in San Diego, it crashed about half a mile before the airport. There was debris from the plane scattered over eight city blocks, bodies and human torsos bounced as high as 150 feet into adjacent palm trees. The fireball was as black as kerosene burns, the main part of the fuselage was for the most part intact.

I was aware of the standdown order for the military,

and a more innocent photo ops for the president at a elementary school could not have been written in fiction any better.

I believe it's money greed and power that started this war, and the control of the world's resources i.e. the oil equals the money equals the $$$$$$,and the power,come hell or high water that rules my country,from Bush in the White House, all the way down the local governments.and it's a scam in the bottom of the top of our government.

We have scoundrel hoodlums ,and crooked people that will sell out the country in a effort to gain control of everything ,steal the hearts and minds of the people of America ,and give them an excuse to pay a higher energy bills........./???????
the bottom line is war generates a lot of cash flow..............when there's a lot of money moving as an opportunity for it to be misappropriated..........and in this country that's all it takes for billions of dollars to disappear......$$$$.
the price of gasoline is not going down,rather it's on its way back up, here in San Diego regular gasoline is just about `$2.50 a gallon......?why...!

As a whole the working man in the United States of America does not trust the politicians when they lie to us about health-care ,sole security ,or the State of the economy ,or for that matter even everyday things.
Why do you think we would trust them in this instance that is this ugly to tell the truth.????????

I think it's clearly about world domination under the guise of spreading democracy, I think it's a load crap. But is just my opinion.

Gordy

[rlortie]

IRAQ ! ! !

VERY INTERESTING....

1. The Garden of Eden was in Iraq.
2. Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, was the cradle of civilization!
3. Noah built the ark in Iraq.
4. The Tower of Babel was in Iraq.
5. Abraham was from Ur, which is in Southern Iraq!
6. Isaac's wife Rebekah is from Nahor, which is in Iraq!
7. Jacob met Rachel in Iraq.
8. Jonah preached in Nineveh - which is in Iraq.
9. Assyria, which is in Iraq, conquered the ten tribes of Israel.
10. Amos cried out in Iraq!
11. Babylon, which is in Iraq, destroyed Jerusalem.
12. Daniel was in the lion's den in Iraq!
13. The three Hebrew children were in the fire in Iraq (Jesus had
been in Iraq also as the fourth person in the Fiery furnace!)
14. Belshazzar, the King of Babylon saw the "writing on the wall" in
Iraq.
15. Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, carried the Jews captive into
Iraq.
16. Ezekiel preached in Iraq.
17. The wise men were from Iraq.
18. Peter preached in Iraq.
19. The "Empire of Man" described in Revelation is called Babylon,
which was a city in Iraq!

And you have probably seen this one. Israel is the nation most often
mentioned in the Bible. But do you know which nation is second? It is
Iraq! However, that is not the name that is used in the Bible. The
names used in the Bible are Babylon, Land of Shinar, and Mesopotamia
The word Mesopotamia means between the two rivers, more exactly
>> between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. The name Iraq, means country with deep roots. Indeed Iraq is a country with deep roots and is a very significant country in the Bible. No other nation, except Israel, has more history and prophecy associated it than Iraq. And also, This is something to think about! Since America is typically represented by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages...

The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible)
Koran (9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken
a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the
lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair
still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of
Allah; and there was peace.

(Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?! God Bless you all Amen !

The above was sent to me as a chain letter, I claim no responsibility for its contents.

Ralph

[AgingYoung]

urban legend, Ralph. That's not in the quran.

Gene

At-Tauba (The Repentance)
9:11 Yet if they repent, and take to prayer, and render the purifying dues, they become your brethren in faith: [17] and clearly do We spell out these messages unto people of [innate] knowledge!

Fain taboo waaqamoo alssalata waatawoo alzzakata faikhwanukum fee alddeeni wanufassilu alayati liqawmin yaAAlamoona

فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُا
الزَّكَاةَ فَإِخْوَانُكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ
وَنُفَصِّلُ الآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونُا

[ken_behrendt]

Ralph...

That alleged verse from the Koran:

Allah; and there was peace.
Koran (9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken
a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the
lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair
still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of

Sounds more like something out of the various prophecies of Nostradamus. I think he mentions an evil world ruler and symbolizes him with an eagle that some have identified as Hitler. The eagle could also be a symbol for Germany.



Gordy wrote (with reference to an article on a 9/11 conspiracy theory that Trev linked to):

I do believe that article has a lot of merit i.e. no plane or the debris of a jetliner was ever found. Some of the people on the ground described it as being the size of a small plane.

I think when the World Trade Towers came down, the sheer weight of the concrete and steel would have tended to pulverize everything including the materials in the jets. I remember seeing an interview with one of the guys that was cleaning up the mess.

He said that below a certain floor near the top of the towers, the size of the debris fragments got smaller and smaller. When he started removing the debris that corresponded to the lower half of the tower, he could not find anything large enough to even be recognized. I think he mentioned that he was wondering what happened to all of the computers and other office equipment that the building was full of. He said that all he found was a piece of a keypad which he assumed belonged to a telephone!

As far as the ground observers saying that the planes that flew into the towers were only small planes, that is can not be true. There are a variety of video tapes that all show large commercial jet planes flying into those towers.

I do not attribute the events of 9/11 to any kind of secret government conspiracy to get us involved in the Middle East. We were already very involved in terms of a military presence and commercial interests.

9/11 happened because we were the victims of a sneak attack by fanatics whose capabilities we grossly underestimated...nothing more.


ken