Weights

[Fletcher]

Good point Ralph .. That's how I saw it happening also. That 'controlled' aspect used to always bother me about the stone lifting demonstrations. How did you let them down again without reversing the wheel & in a controlled manner.

[DrWhat]

Minor note:

the circumference of the wheel below is generally accurate whilst the pendulum is skewed (non symmetrical triangle).

http://www.besslerwheel.com/images/Kassel-2ndFigure.jpg

[wheelmaster]

Something very important that no one has covered is:

Based on the size of the wheel DrWhat posted. Has anyone ever found:

1) Length of the pendulum?
2) Length of pivot point to bar at the top?
3) Length of crank?
4) Length of the bar to the crank?
5) And most importantly out of all the wheels. Do 2 and 3 change?

Finding the answer to these questions would help all of us.

[Fletcher]

take a look at this thread by Jonathan.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... =5175#5175

If you use the advanced search feature & type in Jonathan as Author - then Penulum as keyword. Ask for All Available in post size then select posts you will find his measurements & analysis IIRC.

[bluesgtr44]

...As far as the raising and lowering of the load goes...this was for the Merseberg wheel...

From PM:AAMS..pg. 59...J. Collins pub....

"This new perpetuum mobile has something unique and extremely valuable about it that was not to be found in the Draschwitz model; it can rotate in either direction as desired. As a result it can, turning to the left or the right, wind a load up or down, in or out as necessary. However, to start it, a preliminary push or help by hand is needed."


Steve

[wheelrite]

All the examples of 'doing work' are 'extras' they didn't need to be particulary efficient or true to there use in a factory or mine, the people examinining were clever enough to see it pull a load for a while and be satisfied, as it was seen to self rotate for weeks as well the principal is proved, and the exact method of putting it to real use would be seen as details to be sorted by the users etc.
Regards
Jon

[wikiwheel]

I'm convinced early on in this project that the only way Besslers wheel moved was by cintrifugal force. It it the only way. You can't lift more up than what goes down.

I have a theory...that maybe Bessler launched in to all his "clues" about it because maybe he thought he had givien the secret away and needed to cloud the view and distract away from it.

Consistant bad information is almost as good as the truth, because consistancy seems to substantiate itself...

Think about it.

Mik

[DrWhat]

Mik,

I think you are right on this point:

Bessler was doing all he could to send people on the wrong path. How stupid would one be to leave clues that could let someone else discover the secret. Even difficult clues were a risk.

Being as clever as he was the only clues he would leave would be "retrospective clues". That is once you know the mechanism, only then is it possible to put the clues together. The mechanism becomes like a key to opening up the clues. For that reason we need to discover the way the wheel worked by our own ingenuity, and then get confirmation from Bessler's clues. Then confirmation tells future inventors that he was the first.

Don't believe the Apologia Wheel. I think it is a huge distraction. Why put a clue (no matter how diffcult) right in your face. Seems absurd to me! I think the Apologia wheel is based on a PERSPECTIVE drawing. Showing either three long rectangular slots (longways) in an axis, as we look down the hollow part of the axis, or three triangular pegs entering an axis. The latter is not a bad way to affix a larger wooden frame to a hollow axis.
These are where I believe he got his ideas for the drawing.

[bluesgtr44]

There are a few reasons why I personally do not think he was being deceptive, even though the reasons for being so are well worth considering. First of all...if he sold the machine after the pure hell he went through, they would have pegged as a deceiver for all the misinformation. I do not think he would have allowed himself to get into that position. Secondly, I do not think that Karl would have lent his name to such a deception....his reputation was very important to him. Thirdly...he never really says anything anyway....just keeps basically repeating the same safe thing.

On the performance side. The first two wheels (uni-directional) had to be tied off because of the OOB condition. CF may have attributed to the power output of the device as a whole, but I do think for them to start there had to be an OOB situation.


Steve

[wikiwheel]

Steve<

I know that the wheel could be both oob and centrifugal force driven.

Held at the oob position to start things going.

Centrifugal force caused there to be a surplus of momentum over inertia. And that's how it ran...

[Fletcher]

I think Bessler was in a self-made predicament.

He needed to be as honest as he could [for the reasons outlined by Steve] but at the same time give nothing away of real importance. He says one wrong word could be his undoing [let alone a picture that shows the prime mover mech]. So he gives us information overload but none of it specific or with clarity, though he was well versed in the use of words & could have done so easily.

I don't think his intention was flagrant deception but misinformation or information that could be interpreted many ways. As has been suggested before, when someone works out how it was done for themselves, then they will be able to reflect on his many words & pictures & find the road markers that point the way for his machines.

The least Bessler could hope for is that you would realize that you both probably travelled the same road. The best he could hope for is for the student to acknowledge the teacher but of course this is difficult without clarity & direction which he choses not to supply. Nevertheless, this keeps us searching for the one thread that can be pulled that will unwind the entire tapestry though there may not be one because of his paranoia.

Of course he did this as an attempt to prove his priority which brings us full circle & highlights his predicament. How can he claim priority if he never left clear instructions & patents weren't available to him or he chose not to use them in other countries that did have them ?

The main thing is to remember that his motivation wasn't to be helpful but self protection.

[wheelrite]

Reading Besslers justifications and replies to his inquisitors I get an overall sense of honesty and believability in much of what he says. He just does not give the detail or depth you need to 'see' it, he say's it has weights, springs, pairs, etc. with no fear of discovery as the body of work on pm before and contemporary with his contain probably thousands of designs with these elements. He said 'were everyone has looked before' so feared no novelty as a clue, he answered wanting to justify its reality, and yet was circumspect to 'fit' it within acceptable scientific norms of the day. So basically the 'contents' of the wheel may be accurate. As a rider to that he did say he could design them to work on different mechs so maybe some elements could be substituted or omitted.
Now when it comes to the real secret, the principal, not the components, he is still honest I believe but more vague (deliberately of course), he will allude or use a metaphor (harness the horse in front, the cosmos etc.).
So I'm not sure he needed to spread extensive disinformation to cloud the waters, I think he was well aware of exactly were the 'line of discovery' was and smart enough to give all he could that could later be verified yet stay short of the line.
Who knows maybe within his religious beliefs he would not lie outright?
Regards
Jon

[wikiwheel]

Wheelrite,

"It contained springs." I think that what wagner says he found with borlach, a turnspit device,.. was only the first part of besslers wheel.

When wagner visited and says he saw the inside of the wheel, he did not see all. Bessler had removed the levers that make it go.

The "turnspit" was like a starting winding on a split-phase electric motor. Once the wheel got up to a certain speed, then centrifugal force rand it while the turnspit was then disengagement.


Mik

[wheelrite]

here is a turnspit wheel (dog powered).
http://www.gtj.org.uk/en/item1/7810

and this is how its used...
http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/apr ... rnspit.jpg

Regards
Jon

[wheelrite]

and an interesting geared wheel device for reading (scroll down)
regards
Jon

http://www.kirchersociety.org/blog/2006/11/