Impact is the Key

A Bessler, gravity, free-energy free-for-all. Registered users can upload files, conduct polls, and more...

Moderator: scott

Post Reply
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

re: Impact is the Key

Post by Grimer »

jim_mich wrote:Back to the subject of impact...

Impact can be absorbed by springs. This will spread the force over a short period of time while the spring compresses and decompresses as it bounces the weight back in a reverse direction. If the weight hits an 'anvil plate' on the spring then you will hear the sound of a weight gently hitting something within the wheel.

By using a spring you get a gentle impact that does not beat the wheel to death. It is a perfectly logical method of transferring motion of fast moving weights into wheel motion.
[/url]
Yep. Thanks for that. I can see now why one must NOT use a spring. It isn't the third derivative one needs to invoke, it's the fourth. The third involves the superforce which acts at right angles to the force governing linear velocity, the fourth, a super-dooper force acts at right angles to the third.

If you hadn't talked about "the sound of a weight gently hitting something within the wheel" I wouldn't have seen that.
The word "gently" gives the game away rather.
You can't make an omelette without cracking eggs. Image

Funnily enough one comes across the fourth derivative in structures, (d^4)x/d(y^4). I can't remember offhand what it referred to - change of beam slope - or something like that.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
User avatar
Fletcher
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8507
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:03 am
Location: NZ

re: Impact is the Key

Post by Fletcher »

Note: jim_mich & pequaide are talking about the same thing - harnessing momentum transfer between masses & using the relative velocity differential created - jim_mich has gone a step further IMO & postulated the use of inherent Cf's from a rotating dynamic system to effect the momentum transfer back & forth between the masses, with no additional energy input, & after ordinary system losses are accounted for.

So the question is what happens to the forces in a wheel environment when we release weights to change radius ? - inertia will cause a weight to move outwards but the wheel will slow to conserve momentum i.e. velocity does not increase [to match angular velocity beforehand] unless a force acts on it to increase its velocity artificially - that force must come from the inward moving weight where repositioning it at a closer radius will attempt to speed up the wheel, to conserve momentum & angular velocity - but - the inward moving weight must have a force applied to it to counter & overcome Cf/Cp - jim_mich proposes that this can be effected by shifting the opposing weights forward & backward & in & out & get ahead of the game ? - perpetual leap-frog.

If this is the answer Jim you deserve every accolade going - now just finish the build & prove it, please :)
pequaide
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:30 pm

re: Impact is the Key

Post by pequaide »

Why go a step further when you are already getting 400% and 500 % of the original energy? What is wrong with simple?
User avatar
Fletcher
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8507
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:03 am
Location: NZ

re: Impact is the Key

Post by Fletcher »

You go a step further pequaide because I can get plenty of energy to do work 'simply' by dropping a mass from a height onto a lever - but - unless I can close the loop & replenish the Pe [energy of position/height] to repeat the process ad infinitum, after having used that Ke released, then I have achieved nothing extra-ordinary !

Edit : further clarification - jim_mich is talking about a complete transfer of momentum & back again, to repeat - a self sustaining machine dependant only on a dynamic system & inertia - not a one-way transfer [half the quinella IMO].
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Re: re: Impact is the Key

Post by Grimer »

Grimer wrote:
jim_mich wrote:Back to the subject of impact...

Impact can be absorbed by springs. This will spread the force over a short period of time while the spring compresses and decompresses as it bounces the weight back in a reverse direction. If the weight hits an 'anvil plate' on the spring then you will hear the sound of a weight gently hitting something within the wheel.

By using a spring you get a gentle impact that does not beat the wheel to death. It is a perfectly logical method of transferring motion of fast moving weights into wheel motion.
[/url]
Yep. Thanks for that. I can see now why one must NOT use a spring. It isn't the third derivative one needs to invoke, it's the fourth. The third involves the superforce which acts at right angles to the force governing linear velocity, the fourth, a super-dooper force acts at right angles to the third.

If you hadn't talked about "the sound of a weight gently hitting something within the wheel" I wouldn't have seen that.
The word "gently" gives the game away rather.
You can't make an omelet without cracking eggs. Image

Funnily enough one comes across the fourth derivative in structures, (d^4)x/d(y^4). I can't remember offhand what it referred to - change of beam slope - or something like that.
The reason that (d^4)x/d(t^4) impact is so important is that a hammer blow immediately conjures up the vision of a material being triaxially compressed and spurting out sideways. Think of a jet of water running into a sink and squirting out radially until it meets it hydraulic jump.

This turning through a right angle is an essential component of devices such as the Ventomobil which can sail, counter-intuitively, directly into the wind and also sail rather less interestingly faster down wind than the wind itself which is what one wants in the case of the Bessler, of course.

Fletcher writes
Fletcher wrote:I think Bessler was aware of the force but it wasn't in his front of vision - I mean he observed it in nature everyday but just hadn't made the connection to the PM possibility, seen it as a potential horse to harness, until his dream - then possibilities crystallized & he did experiments to put a leash on this force - Bessler says it can be found/observed in nature & says children play with it in the street/lane.

I think it highly unlikely he cobbled together some arrangement & an unknown force producing OU energy trickled out the bottom for him to amplify & use with imagination - we all want that Force on a collar & chain but first we need to decide on the breed of dog, one that's going to be loyal & obedient & doesn't need feeding, LOL.
We have that "Force". The stamping force of (d^4)x/d(t^4). The force of the drop press of the hammer on anvil.

The reason we find it difficult to recognise is that we fail to see that force is an alias for strain.

(d^2)x/d(t^2) "force" is an alias for one dimensional strain (acceleration)

(d^3)x/d(t^3) is an alias for two dimensional strain (jerk)

(d^4)x/d(t^4) is an alias for three dimensional strain (anonymous, let's say stamp and then all the rugby players will know what we are talking about).

How can I be confident this is correct?

Because I have met these three impostors before in the three equations of state for water vapour.

viz,

P = a constant x T^4 for steam vapour.

P = a constant x T^8 for water vapour.

P = a constant x T^12 for ice vapour.

where P is vapour pressure and T is the phase offset temperature.

I effect the three phases are subject to one, two and three order Casimir pressures.


And when you think about it what could be more reasonable that Bessler should imagining hammering the wheel down on one side in a continuous flow would produce perpetual motion. Any layman would recognise this as a plausible action to take - which is why Bessler was so worried that his "secret" was too easy to discover.

The whole thing reminds me of that wonderful episode with the Beach-master and the Bren gun carrier in The Longest Day.


:28:21
For heaven's sake,
get that carrier off the beach!
:28:28
lf you can't drive it, carry it!

:28:49
Down, Winston. Down, Winston.

:29:27
-Hold it.
-Can't you get your finger out?


:29:30
What's the matter?

:29:31
Engine won't start, sir.
Full of seawater, I think.


:29:36
My old grandmother used to say...

:29:38
...anything mechanical,
give it a good bash.


:29:41
Try it now.

:29:46
Thank you, sir.

:29:47
Off you go. Good luck.

:29:53
I'm sure that got it out.

:29:57
That's what I call a hell of a man!

:29:59
Aye, I like his dog too.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
bluesgtr44
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1970
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:31 pm
Location: U.S.A.

re: Impact is the Key

Post by bluesgtr44 »

Hey Grimer, on that impact theory.....there were no impacts noted in his first two one directional wheels. Even Wagner made a mention of this as he had witnessed the Draschwitz wheel and wrote his long winded tirade about the Merseberg wheel. This response was made directly at the small book titled "Grundlicher Bericht" (sp), or G.B. as we fondly refer to it.

Wagner makes the claim that the impacts and such were "diversions" to take away witness ability to maybe hear what was going on and discover Besslers secret. He makes a claim in one part about his visit in Draschwitz concerning that wheel claiming that "one could listen at the axle and get a sense as to what was taking place" (this is not exact, I can get it for you if you desire). Wagner was of the opinion that impacts were not needed nor present at his demonstration.


Steve
Finding the right solution...is usually a function of asking the right questions. -A. Einstein
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

re: Impact is the Key

Post by Grimer »

bluesgtr44 wrote:...
Wagner makes the claim that the impacts and such were "diversions" to take away witness ability to maybe hear what was going on and discover Besslers secret.
...
I think Wagner is mistaken for the reasons I gave.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
User avatar
Michael
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:10 pm
Location: Victoria

re: Impact is the Key

Post by Michael »

Grimer have you read M.T. ?
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Post by Grimer »

delete
User avatar
path_finder
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2372
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:32 am
Location: Paris (France)

re: Impact is the Key

Post by path_finder »

Dear Fletcher, grimer and all
Can this be in correlation with your assumptions?
http://www3.sympatico.ca/slavek.krepelk ... pforce.htm

In addition I found in my files this old animation.
I did not recorded at that time it was coming from.
I apologize for the absence of owner's reference (Caesar courtoisy)
Attachments
hammer2pm.gif
I cannot imagine why nobody though on this before, including myself? It is so simple!...
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

re: Impact is the Key

Post by Grimer »

@ path_finder

It draws attention to an important aspect of the Bessler.

To quote the link:

"I will concern myself here with bodies from materials, which exhibit near perfect elastic properties, like hardened steels, ..."

I think one of the important points about Bessler impact is that the material he used was anything but perfectly elastic. I think the deformation of the material (lead) was probably an essential component in making the wheel work.

Anyone trying to replicate Bessler should try to use the components as near as we know them, probably 4lb cylindrical lead weights with a hole through the axis.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Re: re: Impact is the Key

Post by Grimer »

pequaide wrote:Ballistic pendulums have impact and they can easily lose 90% of their energy. So have fun trying to use impact as an energy source.
Pequaide makes a very important, indeed crucial point.

What he fails to see, understandably, is that we are not using impact as an energy source but as an energy sink.

We are trying to destroy the energy of the wheel.

But surely, the wheel is stationary. It hasn't got any energy.

Oh yes it has. It is falling towards the sky.

If we are in free fall then like Chicken Licken we will think the sky is falling - and in this case we will be right but before we can get to the King the sky, in the form of the earth, will have smashed us to a pulp.

The wheel is experiencing a reaction force from the ground. It is accelerating towards the sky and we are accelerating with it because we too are experiencing a reaction force from the ground through our feet. If we weren't, if we were stood on a mine shaft hatch which suddenly sprang open, we would see the Bessler wheel accelerating rapidly away from us as the mine shaft walls accelerated rapidly past us.

To get the Bessler wheel rotating we need to kill some of that acceleration towards the sky. We need to worm our way into its vitals and that is what (d^4)x/d(t^4)does.

Now before someone says,

But experiencing the accelerating force from the ground through our feet is quite different from being in free fall. If I am in free fall I do not experience any force on my body.

Quite right. Physiologically the experience of an upward acceleration from the earth and a downward acceleration from gravity are totally different. This is because the upward acceleration from the earth is applied from outside our bodies, applied to our body as a whole whereas the downward acceleration from gravity is applied to every smallest particle in our body.

Earth acceleration is applied from without. Gravity acceleration is applied from within.

To experience Force we have to experience Strain cos Force is only an alias for some order of Strain, strain at some scale or other, strain at some wavelength.

An analogous situation occurs in free diving. A diver does not feel the water pressure because it gets inside him. Like the Bessler wheel impact, it has wormed its way into his vitals. However it does not get inside him as uniformly as gravity. This is why he experiences the bends if he comes up from the depths too quickly.

Impact really is the key.

To bowdlerise Lieutenant Colonel Benjamin Vandervoort, You can't give the wheel a break. Send it to hell.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
greendoor
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 6:18 am
Location: New Zealand

Post by greendoor »

Thanks for that interesting perspective Grimer. Isn't the reaction force that the wheel is experiencing applied directly to the axle? In which case, it can't cause rotation? And should we be able to destroy some of the force of gravity with a bunch of impacts - creating an unbalanced force - then wouldn't the end result just be a decrease in weight of the wheel?
greendoor
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 6:18 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: re: Impact is the Key

Post by greendoor »

Grimer wrote:Anyone trying to replicate Bessler should try to use the components as near as we know them, probably 4lb cylindrical lead weights with a hole through the axis.
Bear in mind that Bessler only let people handle the weights wrapped up in a cloth. Maybe to see them would give away too much? I've speculated what reason that might be ... perhaps they had to be very smooth (pneumatic seal?), or free from finger prints (oil free - electrostatic or chemical attraction?) ...

Or maybe they were coated in another element (to control the type of collision reaction?) ...

From John Collins translation of Apologia:

"Without such things as sulfur, salt, and mercury, all things will come to a standstill. The qualities of the elements are necessary to keep things going. Saturn, Mars, and Jupiter are ready to join in any battle. "

It's reasonably clear that Bessler was an alchemist, and these are loaded with alchemy meanings ... iron (Mars), tin (Jupiter), lead (Saturn) ...

Lead is obviously good for weight - but we really don't know the elastic properties of the finished weights ...

Then again - highly elastic collisions would probably have made a lot more noise than viewers mentioned.

IMO - impact certainly is a major clue - I can't consider anything else from Besslers clues - but I still see this as a lossy transformation, not a source of energy.

Happy to be proved wrong ...
Anything not related to elephants is irrelephant.
greendoor
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 6:18 am
Location: New Zealand

Post by greendoor »

Considering the lengths that Bessler went to protect his (simple) secret; i've wondered if the observed weights were just flywheel ballast - not actually the working part of the mechanism. If removed, the wheel would no longer work - so they would be a convenient red-herring. I have wondered if he used ball shot for the actual working weights ... almost like a fluid ... Or if his cylindrical weights contained ball shot? This could make for weights that could change volume or mass as required ...

"children playing with heavy marbles between the pillars" maybe?

That does suggest Newton Cradle-esque collisions to me ... hmm ...


Just a thought ... can't take anything for granted ...
Post Reply