Are there any working wheels out there?

[erick]

I think that there's value and drawbacks to each approach. Simulation is definitely quicker and cheaper than building a test bed every time but, to me, it's harder to evaluate why something does or doesn't work, it just does or doesn't. An actual build takes more time and money but is easier to evaluate why this, that or the other thing is happening.

I'd also like to add drawing mechs in 3D into the mix. I find this step to be very valuable and many times the most technically challenging. It's very easy to draw things in a program like WM2D that are essentially impossible to build in reality.

In the end a combination of the two is what works best for ME. That's an important distinction. Different people work different ways and shouldn't let themselves be constrained by some generalized idea of the right way of doing things...

E

[Jim Williams]

My last post cost me a green dot and a no comment, yet I find no way I would change it. There are those, such as Fletcher, who don't believe a wheel is actually possible, whom do not turn the board away from them as I have just done for myself. Yet I don't find to change the post.

The existence of nothing, as I assume was successfully gathered, is different than empty space, which is something; if for no other reason it exists in time. It took until the 1850s before the existence of zero was accepted mathematically.

No one is going to pass a law against the existence of a working wheel. There's no such need. All I said was unlike space, a wheel doesn't exist. Something that does exist, besides wheels real in the imagination, is nothing

[triplock]

Ralph Wrote:

More can be discovered accidentally by hands on building than you will ever learn from a simulation program.

Fletcher Responded:

I disagree Ralph - in fact quite the opposite - more can be learned from a simulation program & far quicker - I have done both - it does not matter whether an accident of discovery happens in either context - the point is to reason & then make a discovery & not wait for an accident.

Therefore use what ever tools are available including software to quickly increase knowledge & confidence & then compare predicted behaviour to real world results if you have something interesting.

A crude but accurate example - grab a pen & paper, write a letter to someone & send it by snail mail v's email - I haven't hand written a letter in years & probably wouldn't dream of it unless my computer & email went down ... OR ... hand write a book with pen & paper v's typewriter or computer word processor.





IMHO, you are right Fletcher when you say it is a very 'crude' example, but I don't agree with the 'accurate' bit I'm afraid. I fail to see how your comparison between old and new technologies has any bearing in this instant.

Computer simulation is not a technological timeline replacement for an actual real build. Nor is it likely to offer any 'accidental' break through moments like actual hands-on construction might. Anyway, the irony is ultimately you still have to build the thing anyway, favourable sim or not, which means that build trumps sim everytime, without exception.

Chris

[rlortie]

Steven Hawking was asked what question about the universe would he most like answered. He said his quetion was, "Why is there something instead of nothing?". The answer to the question about working models is still no regardless. There is such a thing as nothing.

Jim,

If this is the post your are referring to, I see no reason why you should have lost a 'greenie' based on its content.

True; at present their are no known working wheels, but at one time man could could not fly, he did not have the 1967 version of Star Treks communicator which is now surpassed.

'Why is there something instead of nothing'

If light travels at 186,000 miles per second, how fast is dark traveling?
If the universe is everything yet it is expanding, what is it expanding into?

As mans technology grows so is the rate of new technology, its an exponential factor. Man will overcome conservative gravity just as he has other 'deemed impossible' subjects over the years.

As Jules Verne once stated; If man can imagine and write about it, man will eventually build it. To date his statement has held true.

Loosing a green dot is not always caused by someone taking it away, as I understand it, the grading is done on the curve created by the member activity. Mine use to go up and down randomly.

[Fletcher]

Triplock .. you may or may not have noticed that people who use both i.e. real build & sims advocate using both, a sim is another tool for you to use & a real build is the only real proof [no argument from any sim user].

People who use both never say just sim & don't build - some people who build say don't sim - go figure.

Your faith & understanding in the math & physics of sims seems weak otherwise you'd understand that it is an accurate technological tool available for you to use - it is true however that a sim won't find a accident of physics that also doesn't exist in the real world.

You could call it an expectational difference or mistrust in old v's new technology.

[rlortie]

Let me reiterate my position.

I am not against simulation research, I do however feel that I have learned more from hands on research.

More than once i have asked for help having a design ran through WM2D by recognized users of the program. Unfortunately when I am sent a responsive screen shot and an explanation of the results, it is never created exactly as my request stated.

I thank them for the time and trouble, delete it and go back to the shop.

Ralph

[Ed]

...he (mankind) did not have the 1967 version of Star Treks communicator which is now surpassed.

Since when have you been able to get reception in orbit, or direct connect with someone on the opposite side of the planet? When you can do these things without a provider THEN you can say we have surpassed it.

And why is everyone making this into some kind of Paul Bunyan contest? As Fletcher said, it's not an all or nothing thing, except for some people... (cough ribby)

[AB Hammer]

I am not against simulations either. But nor do I use them except to read what others are posting or trying to tell me. In this instance I like the simulations.
I use a series of drawings and visualization to see in my minds eye what to expect and my experience from building makes the visualization very good then I test them with reaction test to confirm. As a blacksmith/Armorer, this is how I design all the patterns I work with in my profession for the armor has to fit and move as desired. I also use a placement grid to test weight placements.

[ribby55]

Of course nothing beats the real thing but who has the time and the materials to try every angle that one can conceive? With a Sim you can quickly and easily try out an idea to see if it performs as you would intend it to be or hope it would be. You can waste a lot of effort and time in trying to make something from your mind and into reality to something that is a non-runner. Sims have helped me and I learn a lot from them. Like I said I perfecting something that is already a Sim runner once I am satisfied with the results I will build. I am not just a dabbler. I am as serious as everyone else here.

Cheers!

R.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Guys,

If you have done enough hands on builds then minds sims are the quickest, Fletcher you E mail them I will phone them!

Back to topic, give me time I have only been at it 35 years LOL
Regards Trevor

Edit, add it,

[Tarsier79]

Hey Ribby

You have a working sim, but want to improve it before build. Why bother? Just build it, and if it works then you can improve the design. You have stated your initial sim only has two crossbars. Shouldn't be that hard to build. My advise... get on and build!!!

All the best

[ribby55]

Let me tell you a bit about myself. Up until the age of 40 music was my passion. Life was happy go lucky. I would do shows here and there and life was fine. Then I became a dad 4 years ago and I started thinking about the future. Way into the future. Thinking about how life will be when my son becomes a man and even further still. Let's just say that oil reserves are finite and then what will we do? Go to war and kill each other over the black gold that is beneath us? Some people are getting abundantly wealthy over the energy that has been left behind from our prehistoric ancestors so why should they stop that flow of money into their pockets. They fear people like us who are trying to change the way we produce energy. So it has been 4 years for me of developing alternative green sources of energy. So far I have 2 versions of a gravity wheel and a permanent magnet motor and two generators. My vision is to have access to your own power plant in remote areas like the frozen poles or the arid deserts. Imagine having an electric car where you don't have batteries! You can literally plug into your car because it has its own generating station. We need to find a balance with the earth's ecosystem. With the way we are going it cannot absorb enough CO2 at the rate that we are creating it. We need to see the "Big Picture" We need to remove the blinders that history and science have told us how things are. I have an awareness. My goal is for everyone on the planet to have this awareness. Yes the universe is expanding since the Big Bang.. so should our minds...

Peace.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Ribby,

Do not worry about the energy future as a dad and granddad I share your concerns, as my motives are the same as yours, but the world going Nuclear is my main concern.

I have been at it 35 years and can tell you that there are many ways to build a gravity wheel but I have only found one that is cost efficient at todays energy prices, I hope to tie in with a wind turbine company as they have a foot hold in the market and a list of customers, without give to much away my design could use known wind turbine generator on a gravity wheel, imagine a 24 hour 16 x 3 mega watt wind farm mounted on a large wheel with only 3 to 6 mega watt input required to run it. Once the first one is in production and people hear of it there will be no turning back as there will to much people power, as for oil hydrogen fuel cell powering our cars will see it off within 10 years, Hydrogen energy tech is just waiting for clean electricity.

As for Patents it is a necessary evil wherein the only way to stop a monopoly is to be in control of one, to let people build there own if they want, but 20 years into the future the people will own this technology.

Regards Trevor

[Jim Williams]

Ralph

Thanks for the words. Until I can prove conclusively that a working wheel is impossible, I'll be a little more silent. However, if I were so inclined, which I'm not, with my belief that a working wheel is impossible, now would be the time for me to write a program that generates simulations.

I didn't like my post myself because to assume a working wheel is impossible is not the same as doubting one is possible. A working wheel won't violate the laws of science, it will merely rewrite them. However, starting with saying it's impossible is a violation. I could live without violations.

[rlortie]

Jim,

One should never let themselves get biased that anything is impossible.

If man lives long enough he will break the light speed barrier. He has already learned to fly, broke the sound barrier many times over and has been to the moon.

We now have the internet, cell phones and GPS, the list could go on.

My point is; all of this has taken place within the last 100 years. And at one time it was all said to be impossible. What will the future 100 bring?

To my thinking, attempting to give objective proof that a gravity wheel is impossible is equal to proving that one is possible.

Hang in there;'We shall overcome'.

Ralph