Basic Pm Idea

[smith66]

@All,
Got some wood tonight to go with the plywood I have.
Will make a vertical pump consisting of 2 sections that are 24 inches tall.
I'll be using a 1 lb. weight to pump up 1 lb. of water. The weight will drop only 6 inches while the water moves upward 24 inches.
According to work equals mass times distance, the 1 lb. weight would be doing 4X's the work.
After I get it built, I'll post a video and after that, either you get it or you don't.

[Tarsier79]

Water has leverage too. I hope you will also post your calculated results of your build.

Good luck.

[murilo]

Oh, no!!! Leverage!!!
Please, not again!
Smith, against leverage I recommend the use of a good trustful amulet or even some voodoo!
Taaaaake caaaaaare... 8(
M

[smith66]

Water has leverage too. I hope you will also post your calculated results of your build.

Good luck.

Thanks Tarsier :-)
yes Murilo, leverage, aaauuuugggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guys, I plan on keeping the math fairly basic. After all, unless someone is going to build it besides myself, then calculating volume and mass won't matter much.
Some of the things I plan on demonstrating is that when Bessler said to make 3 stones fly as 1 and then go lightly is something like a catapult.
If you make 2 stones fly as 1, then you need to consider how much torque it takes to make them fly.
After that, Bessler also talked about 4 ounces lifting 16 ounces, a 4 to 1 ratio. Really, what does it all mean ? What will need to be considered is that 2 is 1/2 of 4 to 1.
Why this would matter is if you wanted to use a 1/2 kg. weight to pump 1 kg (1,000 cc's) of water. With a 4 to 1 ratio, 1/2 of the force or torque would be to pump the water and the other half would be for velocity.
The ratio I plan on using is 8 to 1 although I may reduce the weight by 1/2 to equal a 4 to 1 ratio. This would show how using different basic ratios make a difference in the amount of water that can be pumped and how quickly it can be moved.
By the way, the threshers circled in the picture will be incorporated into the test. This will show how some of Bessler's mechanics helped to solve some "problems" when it comes to moving parts.
And of course, the picture is the property of John Collins :-)

p.s., anyway, it should be interesting. oh yeah, what was it Bessler said when talking about Wagner ? What if I were to teach the proper method of mechanical application? Then people would say: "Now I understand!�

And that is what the tests I will be doing are about. You know, Bessler's "secret".

[jim_mich]

when Bessler said to make 3 stones fly as 1 and then go lightly is something like a catapult.

I'm rather knowledgeable about all of Bessler's writing, and I'm totally unaware of any writing about "3 stones" flying. Could you point us to said writings?

After that, Bessler also talked about 4 ounces lifting 16 ounces, a 4 to 1 ratio. Really, what does it all mean ?

If you go back and read the whole chapter 43 (XLIII) then it becomes clear that Bessler was mocking Wagner when he talked of 4 ounces lifting 16 ounces and 1 lbs liftin 4 lbs. It was obvious to Bessler, it was obvious to Wagner, and it is obvious to most people, that 1 pound cannot lift 4 pounds, except by leverage, which requires a 4 to 1 ratio of travel distance, which Wagner had just finished explaining, and Bessler agreed that Wagner was right. Thus the secret is NOT in lifting 4 lbs with 1 lbs as everyone thinks. That statement was written as sarcasm.

In a document writen by Wagner and titled:

The
Now Fully Exposed
Perpetual
and Intrinsic
Motion Machine,
In which it will be shown in detail
that the
Experiment Performed by Mr. Orffyreus
is Worthless and that Neither Perpetual Motion
Nor a Constant Superior Force
Has Been Demonstrated;
At the same time, the Recently Published
Merseburg Text
is Completely Refuted,
and the impossibility of Artificial Mechanical Perpetual Motion
is Sufficiently Shown, with an Accompanying
Copper Engraving of a Thoroughly Calculated Machine
-Which
is Capable of Rotating Left and Right, as Desired, and
Raising a Load of 70 Pounds to a Height Equal
to that Achieved at the Test Run
and thus
Accomplishes Everything that Mr. Orffyreus has Shown-
Produced
by
Christian Wagner,
Mathematician
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leipzig, 1716
Published by Johann Christian Martini,
Nicolai Street.

Translated by Andrew Witter;
U.S. © Copyright 1997 by Al Bacon
Reprinted (by John Collins) by permission of the copyright holder

The hoisting weight must be heavier than the hoisted . (otherwise, they would remain in equilibrium, and no motion would result), but in this (Note by Jim_Mich: by this wheel Wagner means Bessler's) wheel a lighter weight would eventually have to raise a heavier one NB as far as the heavier one has fallen and within the same amount of time; however, such an occurrence is impossible, as will be shown in XXI.

This is Wagner's writing to which Bessler was responding. Wagner used the fact that its impossible to lift heavy weights using lighter weights as his reason why Bessler's wheel was not a perpetual motion wheel. Bessler agreed that Wagner was right in saying that lighter weights cannot lift heavier weights. But Bessler also claimed to be right when he stated that his wheel was a true perpetual motion.

The only logical conclusion is that Bessler's wheel was a motion wheel (or fraud or some other unknown energy source) and not a gravity wheel where lighter weights must lift heavier weights.

It is not my intention to mess up other peoples threads, but please don't miss-quote Bessler.

[smith66]

@Jim_Mich,
No weights will be hoisted. This is one of the reasons I am going to demonstrate it. Then hopefully everyone will understand it.

[jim_mich]

I'll ask again...

when Bessler said to make 3 stones fly as 1 and then go lightly is something like a catapult.

I'm rather knowledgeable about all of Bessler's writing, and I'm totally unaware of any writing about "3 stones" flying. Could you point us to said writings?

Can point us to said writings ??

[smith66]

@Jim_Mich,
When I get access to a cyomputer I will.
I'll also see about getting the quote where Bessler said he used pipes or tubes. In German, they use the same word for both.
Don't worry about this last one, someone in a German forum made me aware of it.

edited to add; Jim_Mich, it's possible I was made aware of that when posting in the German forum I mentioned.

You know Jim_Mich, it seems like your nit picking before I even finish the demo model I'm working on. Why don't you show your work ? I'd like to see it.

@All,
This is something I found that path_finder posted a while back. With the way the warped board moves, he got that part right, only it's levers doing the work causing it to pump.
So when you see the demo when i post it, just look at his animation and consider the warped board being turned around facing the other way.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... sler+clues

[Dwylbtzle]

@All,
Got some wood tonight to go with the plywood I have.
Will make a vertical pump consisting of 2 sections that are 24 inches tall.
I'll be using a 1 lb. weight to pump up 1 lb. of water. The weight will drop only 6 inches while the water moves upward 24 inches.
According to work equals mass times distance, the 1 lb. weight would be doing 4X's the work.
After I get it built, I'll post a video and after that, either you get it or you don't.

i believe the water will move a different distance upward depending on the size of the upward tube

so you get it to move-however high-and then i believe you have to reset something

you may have a liquid one shot lever there (and THAT only if the "fulcrum" is the up tube being smaller than the down tube)
if so
you amplify yer input energy or focus it or whatever advantage one gets from a lever
but i don't see how you perpetuate it
so you have to have a steady stream coming in from somewhere

unless, as always, i'm wildly incorrect--which would cause no deaths from shock


(nothin fer nothin but if that tube is small enough--open at both ends--then you could just stick it in water and the water would go part way up all by itself... and this would be from microforces, in [or between] the molecules of the water, that come from engaging quantum-level phenomena going on in the water attempting to form a skin or something-
-but the energy that lifts the water comes from the water--and isn't diminished no matter how many times you do it over and over again with the same water)

AND...you can have a little water in the bottom of a piston and that night
the piston will go up and when it thaws the next morning the piston will
fall--and you can do that over and over again with the same water and
the force you get from each piston fall or rise will never be diminished
--because the energy you gleaned on the downstroke was from gravity
and the energy you got on the upstroke (which ALLOWED you to tap the gravity)
was from another dimension--
specifically quantum magic that goes on between water molecules--yes
it's magic--by any and every definition--there, i told you. now gimme money! lol

[smith66]

@All,
I thought I'd post some clues that I find interesting.

"I don't want to go into the details here of how suddenly the excess weight is caused to rise." AP 343
excess weight is singular.

“He will be called a great craftsman/artist, who can easily/lightly throw a heavy thing high, and if one pound falls a quarter,
it shoots four pounds four quarters high.� AP 291 Steward translation
Some math is needed here, it's a 16:1 ratio. that's much more than a 3:1 ratio.

Still, it will be a new idea for everyone in here except for myself. but with bessler's wheel, i'm not sure why any person would keep their work secret unless they have yet to fully understand their efforts.

edited to add link;
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... p?p=100316

[ovyyus]

Around we go again :D

[Dwylbtzle]

smitherine, laddie
i can lift a four hundered pound weight with even yea my feeble bologna robot
by using a lever
with one hand if using a long enough lever

once
and i'd have to push down a long way and the 400 lbs would only be going up a bit

yes--you can get immense power boost from levers
or gear boxes (compound levers)
or rims of circular levers (art tristey wheels)
or levers in a line--(probably gay--but hey--i'm a libertarian)
or liquid levers (weight pumps)

once
then they have to be reset
if it's a wheel then they have to be reset over and over

once you get that four pounds up--then what?
(or one pound which had been pushed up four times as hard
with another pound
or however it would be defined)

i see you holding pound/s up there
with a brick
that was lifted there and then dropped in the first place
now what?
yer move

if you say yer gonna spin it
then you have the same problem as up there
but you're having it every time the wheel spins around
edit: which will be once

[Tarsier79]

It isn't new Jim. Perbaps you havent noticed it before. Not only that but you will not lift more than you let fall. Guaranteed!

[smith66]

@Tarsier,
I know it isn't new other wise Bessler wouldn't have done it. ;-)

Still, will be a couple of days or so before I have the demo pump finished.
I'll be using an 8:1 ratio. With 2 weights working together, it would be the equivalent of a 16:1 ratio.
Still, will be having a weight drop 6 inches (15 cm's) while "hoisting" an excess weight of equal and/or greater mass 24 inches (60 cm's).
Just not sure why you guys have a problem with that.

[Dwylbtzle]

i don't know about anyone else-
-but i don't have any problem with you being able to lift a large weight with a smaller one
so i'm sure you could demonstrate that
and be acknowledged as having done so

once

but how do you get that to spin a wheel?
and then make the wheel spin itself (automatically reset the lever (pump handle) that lifted the weight, and do it over and over again every time the wheel goes round)

the word pump comes from PWOMP PWOMP pwomp pwomp (i'm getting tireda pumpin this thing)

not pump once and it mows yer lawn for you forever

you dropped a weight on something?
well, did you lift it first?
and when it comes around on the spinner yer gonna have to lift it again AND the heavier weight
around the circle

no-you don't have to
it has to do it itself
and then pump itself again

and any force you squirt or pull or impell or draw or pulley or gear up or winch
around the outside of a freestanding wheel from within itself
will create an action that will be countered by an equal and opposite reaction
once