Priority Claim

[Tarsier79]

Ever walked up and down a mountain track?

[Grimer]

Looking back through my posts I find there actually is a member who found the high road - low road video difficult to believe.

Is there anyone else who thinks it's a fake?

First of all, we need to see the two cars interchanged to make sure their performance is identical. No two cars are ever the same. In this vid, the yellow car always travels the top. Maybe it's the most "free-rolling" one, in which case the demo is even more valid. But if it is the car which when released on a track absolutely identical to a second track on which the green car would roll on, and the green one always get's there first, the demo is totally flawed. ...

You seem to be having problems in believing the demo is genuine, Nic.
Maybe you are feeling the same cognitive dissonance of the person who commented on the video.

[Grimer]

Here is another video for Nic. I see his last visit was on 13 July. He's probably on the French August holiday month by now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX6eQgr ... 4lVtG3bA-A

[Grimer]

Pendulums don't have to be constrained to swing about their centre of curvature by a string in tension. They can alternatively swing about their centre curvature constrained by a slope in compression.

Realising this, and the implications, is the key to understanding the High Road - Low Road videos.



The above image shows 1 second, 2 second and 3 second stringless pendulums.

[Grimer]

Here is the YouTube video from which the above screen shot was copied.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PmPp9EZ3gk

[Tarsier79]

Although there are some similarities with a rolling ball on the path of a pendulum, and a pendulum itself, there are also some important differences. A ball rolling along the exact same path as a pendulum will have a different period.

I don't see how this helps the search.

[Grimer]

I don't see how this helps the search.

That surprises me. I would have thought by now you would see how this helps the search.

I realised its potential three years ago.

This video is rather fun, if only because of the soundtrack and canned laughter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSv_IlXmBg

and the following comment is pertinent to the search for PM (though I suspect it was made by the video maker to point up the enigmatic nature of the demonstration).

"that is actualy kind of intersting, i was thinking they would reach the final point at the same time, because when you drop or throw a ball at the same height they both land at the same time.? the acceleration the one going down the hill would be partly canceled out by the one going up and they should both reach them at the same time..... at least that was my thoughts, i guess i was wrong"

Consider the following example of the same phenomena.



If we let a cart roll through the blue valley starting at A and finishing at B then it will arrive at B earlier than a similar cart rolling through the red valley. Not only is its speed greater but so is the distance travelled.

Surely we must be able to use this in some way to obtain perpetual motion.
...

I almost had the answer. It's taken me three years to work out how to get reset. I've now found that trick - thanks to my spat with the Keeper of the Keenie. :-)

[justsomeone]

My ears are burning. :)

[Ed]

It's taken me three years to work out how to get reset. I've now found that trick - thanks to my spat with the Keeper of the Keenie. :-)

If it wasn't meant to indicate "in your possession" the word "found" shouldn't have been used, should it.

To do so looks like deliberate deception, especially when you don't give demonstrable details thus forcing people who suspect something fishy to resort to thinking "found" just means the general area of a grating you dropped your keys in.


(That's a whole lot of [sic] ;-)

[zoelra]

Grimer,

I experimented with several types of weight moving designs in my early two stage oscillator days. The main 3 types are shown in the attached drawing. The first drawing shows a simple swinging pendulum. The other 2 show weight carts that hang from and sit on circular paths. As long as the radius of the weights was the same, I found that the forces and periods of each weight to be very similar. I attributed the differences to friction and scrubbing of the bearing wheels within the track guides. All 3 scenarios produced the CF I was looking for. My research was really to confirm to myself that hanging or rolling cart weights behaved the same when constrained to the same path. How the path reacts (or is allowed to react) to the moving weight is where I believe the magic comes in.

[EDIT] I avoided simple rolling ball-bearing type weights because I couldn't figure out how to get the rotational energy back out of the ball if it stopped suddenly, and I really only needed translational energy so why choose a design that ties up energy in rotation.

[Grimer]

Grimer,

I experimented with several types of weight moving designs in my early two stage oscillator days. The main 3 types are shown in the attached drawing. The first drawing shows a simple swinging pendulum. The other 2 show weight carts that hang from and sit on circular paths. As long as the radius of the weights was the same, I found that the forces and periods of each weight to be very similar. I attributed the differences to friction and scrubbing of the bearing wheels within the track guides. All 3 scenarios produced the CF I was looking for. My research was really to confirm to myself that hanging or rolling cart weights behaved the same when constrained to the same path. How the path reacts (or is allowed to react) to the moving weight is where I believe the magic comes in.

[EDIT] I avoided simple rolling ball-bearing type weights because I couldn't figure out how to get the rotational energy back out of the ball if it stopped suddenly, and I really only needed translational energy so why choose a design that ties up energy in rotation.

Why indeed - Though some rotational energy will be involved in the rotation of the carriage wheels but being an engineer I'll ignore that. ;-)

Tarsier79 drew attention to the importance of Ersatz energy when he wrote:

Although there are some similarities with a rolling ball on the path of a pendulum, and a pendulum itself, there are also some important differences. A ball rolling along the exact same path as a pendulum will have a different period. ...

Strictly speaking to eliminate all transfer of 2nd order Ersatz energy transfer, i.e. rotation about the bob centre as distinct from rotation about the pivot (1st order) one would have to keep the bob from its small angular rotation. One could do this with an infinite inertia bob on a frictionless axle, a mathematician's dream bob.

One of the most spectacular transfers of Newtonian gravity to Ersatz gravity can be demonstrated with a yo-yo. I'd love to make a really big one with a tiny diameter axle and all its mass concentrated at its rim. The vertical acceleration to the floor would be glacial.

[zoelra]

Grimer wrote:
"I'd love to make a really big one with a tiny diameter axle and all its mass concentrated at its rim. The vertical acceleration to the floor would be glacial."


... and if you can find a way to utilize the Ersatz energy in the yo-yo's drive downward then the upward climb would be REWARDING ...

[Grimer]

Good idea. I think I might see a way one might do that. After all, one has the main problem of a commutator switching sorted, eh!




One could use a bistable body such as a Hoberman Sphere to change the inertia of the yo-yo drastically without incurring a significant energy loss.

What effect would that have?

[zoelra]

Grimer,

With an equally expanding and contracting sphere, I think you would have to deal with the effects of conservation of momentum in the plane of rotation. You would have to input energy to pull in the sphere and then later when releasing the sphere allowing it to expand, that energy would be lost. A losing proposition unless you could harvest energy during expansion to pay for the contraction, but then you're just breaking even. c)

When you refer to Ersatz are you not implying CF?

[Grimer]

With a bistable body the energy in the tension and compression members is much greater than the energy involved in moving mass in and out. That's the whole point of the exercise.

When you refer to Ersatz are you not implying CF?

Same thing.