Bessler's Death

[Fletcher]

Sam .. I think Agor might be talking about the last table top model purportedly 10 inches in diameter (in a German News Paper account at the time apparently).

It certainly disappeared after it was ready in an April letter by Bessler to his landlord in London IIRC. It didn't appear to be delivered or picked up (probably payment wasn't completed) and Bessler died 30 November 1745.

The official prior one to that was the Kassel bi-directional 12 foot wheel of 1717, some 28 years earlier. Which Bessler smashed to pieces after 'sGravesande took a look around it via Bessler's brother Gottfried, while Bessler was out, IINM.

[Tarsier79]

I don't recall ever hearing about a 10" model. Do you have a link?

[Fletcher]

Here you go. I did a search of the member Hotzenplotz, who describes himself as a member looking in here occasionally. He is German by accounts.

I include all his 33 posts since 2008. Because I think they contain good information and perspectives to consider. IMO they are all worth reading again.

He talks about the News Paper account of the 10 zoll table top wheel driving two small hammers in his last post(s) and comments about it and Gottfried's possible hiding of it etc in other posts. Who ordered it etc.

Also questions Bessler's death in the same year but long after the fall, and his fire-engine rather than steam engine, IIRC.

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/sear ... de=results

ETA : leave keyword field blank and in Author enter Hotzenplotz. Ask for return all characters of posts.

Or click on find all posts here.

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/sear ... de=results

There have been other mentions of a table top toy over the years. I give you Hotzenplotz because he specifically mentions a 10 zoll machine and therefore easy to search.

And to me, he sounds credible ! Altho KB also said there was a later model, but don't let that put you off ;7)

[daxwc]

I thought Gottfried was at the time living in London or is that a Doc story?

[daxwc]

His assistant was his brother Gottfried, and after JB left Kassel, he emigrated to England where he seems to have disappeared, since I have been unable to find any mention of him. His first wife was not permitted access to the secret and neither was his brother. Her maid was subjected to an extremely powerful oath which nevertheless was insufficiently terrifying to make her hold her tongue and eventually led to his being arrested on a trumped up charge which was quickly dismissed.

John Collins

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... ried#14493

[daxwc]

Hotzenplotz:

By the way I discovered some announcements in a 1745 newspaper, afaik not known till now. In february we are told, Bessler is now in Fürstenberg and is going to build a PM there, if his weakness ist not going to prevent this. He also announced to build some "Feuer-Spritzen" of a very special kind, so it is not a usual device we were talking about above. He also is looking for a publisher to publish pictures of his machines, drawn in copper (!) by his own hand.
In may the PM is ready, and although it's just a model, driving two hammers, with a diameter of 10 Zoll, he is willing to sell it for a good price. This public offer was published one month after the "last letter" was written.

It is too bad he never uploaded the newspaper article as evidence and preserve information here.

[daxwc]

He also is looking for a publisher to publish pictures of his machines, drawn in copper (!) by his own hand.

Is MT drawn in wood blocks or copper?

Inventory of estate 41) A box full of woodcuts for the Great Treatise.

[John Collins]

Adam von Mannsberg was Bessler’s landlord but also a member of King George’s cabinet and a Fellow of the Royal Society. He spent most of his time in London. He ordered the last pm machine to be made but was prevented from travelling to see the machine because of the fears of the Jacobite rebellion, which caused the British government to order all cross channel travel to cease.

It’s a sobering thought that if it hadn’t been for the Jacobites we might have become familiar with Bessler’s wheel back in 1745!

JC

[Fletcher]

He also is looking for a publisher to publish pictures of his machines, drawn in copper (!) by his own hand.

Is MT drawn in wood blocks or copper?

Inventory of estate 41) A box full of woodcuts for the Great Treatise.

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 900#169900

There are some questions unanswered concerning his legacy:

Where is the PM he offered to sell in May 1745?

Obviously he didn't sell it, cause otherwise he would have had money, which was not the case.

Where are the engravings he offered in May 1745?

What we know is MT are NOT engravings but woodcuts, which is something very different

Where is the rest of the woodcuts?

The inventory of death counted a number of 219. Strieder in 1795 found only 141.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I think these are quite interesting questions... The fact, that both the PM and a lot of pictures are missing since the day of his death has something quite fascinating...

P.S. I find it inconceivable that Bessler's brother Gottfried did not know how his wheels worked. He showed 'sGravesande the wheel while B. was was sick in bed. A lifetime of opportunity !

IINM Gottfried is the Bessler relative that JB talks about in his books who made organs (unless there is another one ?), and he partnered up with to make wheels and experiments. It is inconceivable to me that JB should hit upon the answer then not show or tell his brother and partner Gottfried. Gottfried did much of his building for starters and they would have naturally shared ideas and excitement, IMO.

[Tarsier79]

If there was actually an 11 inch wheel, that changes a lot in my opinion. I always assumed that the wheels had to be relatively big to extract the secret principle.

[agor95]

Hi Tarsier79

Have you considered the potential method the wheel used that depends on it being a large wheel?

All the Best

[Sam Peppiatt]

I think Fletcher is right. Not only did Gottfried know the secret, he probably did most of the work on it. Plus, he helped to move the 12 foot wheel from one place to the other, which required removing the weights. So, he must have known how it worked.
That's probably why he went to England, to try to sell it. But, apparently without success. Who knows for sure.

So, maybe it's neither here nor there, but what it does demonstrate, is that even today, with a working wheel, it would be nearly impossible to get anyone to buy it---------Sam

[Fletcher]

I did a little digging, for accuracy sake. Searched John Collins and Gottfried.


https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... ried#28941

Now I think that your information is flawed Doc. Rowley died aged 60 in January 1728 and according to the records, Bessler's brother didn't go to England until after Bessler's wife died and after his maid had left him, in 1729

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... ried#60659

Yes I recall that Ralph. Since then I have acquired some new information relating to Gottfried. He and his family returned to Germany and lived near or with his brother. At the same time, Johann also had the dubious pleasure of providing accomodation for his erstwhile mother-in-law, her two daughters and other two son-in-laws who were all after a share of Johann's good fortune.

It seems that Gottfried was the early Bessler in AP and JB's assistant. He left for England after JB's wife died and JB's maid had left him (1729). Or as JC says in another thread after the maid accusations. But he returned to live with JB or near JB before JB's death. And was buried in the family crypt.

So the landlord's agent may have taken the 10 inch model but Gottfried can't be completely removed from the frame, because he was in the same town at the same time as JB died, by accounts.


https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... ried#60642

[Sam Peppiatt]

Very good Fletcher. I stand corrected!! No matter what happened, it seams like no one cared about to wheel------------------------Sam

[Fletcher]

If there was actually an 11 inch wheel, that changes a lot in my opinion. I always assumed that the wheels had to be relatively big to extract the secret principle.

Kinda rules out Cf's as a major player.

We don't know what rpm it turned at, but I assume that when driving the little hammers it slowed from the unloaded rpm. I assume greater than 100 rpm given the trend in the previous wheels.

We also don't know whether it was one-directional or bi-directional, or depth to diameter ratio, but it is hard to imagine the workmanship and skill required for a two-directional wheel (that needs a nudge to start), at that tiny scale.

Lastly the proportion of dissipative losses like friction would be greater at that scale I imagine i.e. static and kinetic frictions between parts in contact. Altho watches and clocks with gears and escapements can reduce friction loads and still operate, sometimes a speck of dust can bring them to a stop. I can't imagine this wheel being airtight or dust proof. Therefore the driving force must be proportional, and considerably greater than the combined dissipative losses potential, imo. Enough to overcome dust and grime buildup and the friction of the hammers to boot.