Marquess of Worcester

[Tarsier79]

Not sure why you want high speeds. At high speeds the balls will fly out and sit against the outside. As it slows, gravity will start to affect it more than CF/inertia. The more the wheel slows, the less the balls will lag moving to their position compared to the rotational position of the wheel. IMO the best case scenario is when it is stationary. A static computation from 1 to 180 degrees in 1 degree increments would show its potential. A computer could also calculate 1/10, or 1/100th degree increments in a simple spreadsheet with a little massaging.

[agor95]

There is room to study both the static freeze frame results and the dynamic results.

When it comes to answering your question on how to make the weights dependent on each other.

We need to check out the dynamic range from the two outer limits.

Naturally very slow or fast are outside the probable useful rate of rotation.

Bessler has given use the hint that a dynamic analysis is required over a freeze frame analysis.

All the Best

[Georg Künstler]

by agor95 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:12 pm

There is room to study both the static freeze frame results and the dynamic results.

When it comes to answering your question on how to make the weights dependent on each other.

We need to check out the dynamic range from the two outer limits.

Naturally very slow or fast are outside the probable useful rate of rotation.

Bessler has given use the hint that a dynamic analysis is required over a freeze frame analysis.

The range is also given from Bessler, I think I have read 26 rounds per minute. This was depending on the building size of the wheel.
This 26 RpM is the natural frequency of the wheel. It variates when it is under load.
The wheel cannot accelerate more than the normal speed which you can achive with a free fall of a weight.
v= a*t or in our case v=g*t as result you can only increase the speed when you increase the diameter of the wheel.

[agor95]

Thank you Georg - I will watch out for anything interesting around 26 RPM.

I think investigating dynamic analysis of pendulums is like a 'right of passage'.

If you want to do this with a physical build then a strobe light and RPM controlled motor would be helpful.

For me it's going to be computing with a polar coordinate system.
A cartesian coordinates is the way to Newton madness.

All the Best

[Georg Künstler]

Hi agor95,
here an sketch for the speed limit.

assume we have endless weights which are falling from the given high, then the first fall will accelerate the turning of the wheel.

The speed difference between the standstill wheel and the falling weight will be high. We have an impact.

When the wheel is begin to accelerate the speed difference will be reduced and reduced until the wheel has the same speed as the falling weights.

So the size of the built is one key factor.

When you have a look to the impact point, then you will see that with the size of the built also the horizontal lever arm is increased.
It is growing with the radius of the wheel.

[agor95]

Hello All

I have been working on a test rig.
That required removing code and reprogramming.

I am just using some numbers to test the code. Like the marble being 100 grams. There are lines from the green and red anchor points [hidden].

However only the green has any loading at 0.981 newtons.

The action I am looking at is a counter clockwise rotation.

The marble is forced to move. However it will resist and being lazy will move the least amount it can achieve.

For that reason the green line loading will go up.

P.S. The 0.981 newtons is caused by the marble resisting acceleration due to gravity.

All the Best

[Tarsier79]

It looks like there is little difference between a stringed model or a model with eye shaped cutouts and a ball rolling around.

[Fletcher]

That's right imo Tarsier .. When string or rod attached you have tension forces. When you have a ramp you have Contact forces (the Normal Force) which is the same magnitude and direction (vectors) for each type.

Therefore, as I said with the Gentleman's wheel simplification I did, you can simplify to either a pendulum or ramp analogy, in most cases.

Worth keeping in mind if wanting to have less moving parts etc.

[agor95]

I will keep it in mind for having weights on the end of ropes is not the safest thing to have around.

[agor95]

I have added trails to the key objects. Also reverted back to a cyan cylinder.
That allows better compatibility with 2d simulators with this 3d version.
After all a cylinder is a circle with depth.

The reasoning for this addition of these trails is to show the curved path.

This allows measurement of forces created on the cyan mass.
These are caused by the most optimal curved path taken to do the least work.

Naturally we are interested in the forces created; For they pull on the anchor points [Red, Green].

[nicbordeaux]

The weights on the ascending side are definitely closer to the axle, which means it's easy for the weights further from axle descending side , at a greater radius , to be be able to descend and lift those on the ascending side. How you stop the things swinging around and spoiling the show is anyone's guess.

Here's a pic of the Marquis's wheel from the Ord-Hume book mentioned in earlier threads about this wheel.

It is an attempt to create a self-moving wheel, that LOOKS like it should have good possibilities for continued imbalance/overbalance.

In many ways this very simple and easy to follow illustration drives the message home, or should do !

That the girls were far prettier in Geography than the Sciences, and those were the classes I always attended lol.

[WaltzCee]

Naturally we are interested in the forces created; For they pull on the anchor points

indeed we are. Where in creation has any observed the process of creation? All eyes are on our esteemed colleague.

[WaltzCee]

Naturally we are interested in the forces created; For they pull on the anchor points

indeed we are. Where in creation has any observed the process of creation? All eyes are on our esteemed colleague.

Now if one were to plot the infinite series of the tangents (orthogonal to the axle) between 180 & 270 deg and do some of that there vector analyses they might find the resultant to average in the neighborhood where x eagles y.

makes a nice ramp as Fletcher noted. Right in the middle of flat and straight up.

I do believe our esteemed colleague has discovered a straight line mechanism. It isn't novel but it's good to see his neurons firing.

straight up.


resultant encoded here
Isaiah 40:3

[Sam Peppiatt]

agor95,

Why don't you try a 1,000 weights? At least percentage wise it would be better------------------------Sam

[agor95]

I trust that is 1 weight to 3 decimal place?

In Europe a decimal point is a comma.

Anyway this attached zip file should work.
It does not need too much processing.

1 thousand weights would prevent this test.

The attached zip file contains a page in html. This is better than me using my web server. Your bowser should allow you to unpack and view the page.

The presentation is of a moving 3d Marquis Square.

Normal rules apply Right mouse button to swivel, Both to zoom and Left+Shift to pan. The last thing F5 to rerun.

Note. The primary task is developing a presentation method.
The behaviour of the pendulum will need more work.

Regards