Bessler Wheel Secrets #3

[eccentrically1]

So far nothing seems to have been eliminated yet…

[mikeyned]

Waltz Cee wrote to mIKEYnED, “What do you think?”

Solo: I don’t know that I can say anything more of what I see in MT, and other drawings, about “the one way wheel” than what has already been said. I have given the path of the weights as the wheel rotates. I have given a measuring guide to the blueprint for the lengths of the components. I have shown the mechanism in approximate operation. I have narrowed the anchor points of the ropes on the wheel and the pendulum arm. I have shown the lifting device. The only thing missing seems to be exactly what I have also said.

Duo: I believe the “prime mover” (as with some other things or concepts that are routinely discussed and studied) is exclusively a part of the 2-way-wheel.
(Have an idea what it might be?)
Yes.
(Want to talk about it?)
No. The 1-way-wheel needs to be found first.
Not interested in planning wings for a watermelon or the box it came in.

Trio: Waltz Cee, You are so damned smart that that I can’t follow half enough of what you write and it makes my brain burn. There must be some drawings or something that explains your general 2 masses concept that I sometimes catch glimpses of before the smoke blocks my vision. Could you put some cookies on a lower shelf for the new/old guy ? Not many teeth left either so can I have some milk with my cookies, too ?

Quartet: J.C. and Ovyyus Are {[-->" the "<--]} two people in Bessler Circles who have known me the longest and the two whom I am currently most interested in reading their opinion or general comments on my latest fairly complete endeavor.

Fin:

mIKEY

[WaltzCee]

. .. .. .

Trio: Waltz Cee, You are so damned smart that that I can’t follow half enough of what you write and it makes my brain burn. There must be some drawings or something that explains your general 2 masses concept that I sometimes catch glimpses of before the smoke blocks my vision. Could you put some cookies on a lower shelf for the new/old guy ? Not many teeth left either so can I have some milk with my cookies, too ?

. .. .. .

you will get no cookies or milk, and you will like it.

Presently my phone is unable to upload graphics and I refuse to hook my computer up to the net.

It took the red pill.

[Sam Peppiatt]

I still contend that the true secret to Bessler's wheel, or any gravity wheel for that matter, involves translating weights. In Bessler's case, he could have swung the weights up say two feet on about a one foot radius. They might fall as much as ten feet on a five foot radius. Then, at or near the bottom they simply shift back to being balanced and return to the top of the wheel. It' a good concept!

Can't any one see the possibilities of it------------------------------Sam

[gravitationallychallenged]

Bessler labored and sacrificed for 10 long difficult years before discovering a mechanism that was successful. He wrote that if someone with insight and ingenuity was to study his drawings he or she could utilize elements from some of them to construct a working mechanism. Since he was a brilliant thinker and an honorable man he must have been torn between desiring to be compensated for all of his trouble but also not wanting his discovery to be lost forever without leaving clues for another person to ressurect it after his death. His drawings contained many peculiar things that seemed out of place in the drawings. If I were an inventor in his situation I would have left clues but would have forced the reader to perform extensive mental gymnastics before coming to a correct conclusion. I believe he wanted us to work as hard as he did to solve the mystery and have a full understanding of all of the forces involved. I've posted several threads outlining some of my thoughts regarding the configuration of a successful mechanism. If I possessed the necessary CAD skills I would have contributed much more than mere words over the years. My ideas have evolved as my knowledge has increased. I don't pretend to be an expert just an aspiring detective trying to solve the mystery like many others in this forum.

Georg Kuenstler designed a hinged square to rotate within a hamster wheel which I thought was a very unusual and interesting approach. When mikeyned pointed out the square pulley in the drawing it immediately caused me to think of Georg's design. What has caused me to think the longest and hardest is the prime mover mechanism. The only logical place to position a heavy prime mover weight is near the center of the wheel. What prime mover can transmit force without being impaired by centripetal force? I've thought of numerous designs but they have all had flaws. Any mechanism that is connected to fixed point or points near the center of the wheel would be negatively affected by centripetal force.

What causes centripetal force? It results from 2 opposite directions present in a rotating object. In a clockwise rotating mass the bottom of the mass is traveling to the left while the top of the mass is traveling to the right. Any mass wants to move in a straight path. Rotation creates powerful forces within the mass because it is causing most of the molecules within the mass to move in opposite curved directions. The heavier the mass and the greater the speed the more powerful the centrifugal, centripetal and gyroscopic forces become. In a perfectly balanced rotating mass the center is being pulled outwards equally in all directions. The only way to avoid a prime mover from being locked into the center of the wheel is by not attaching it to any fixed point within the wheel.

This is the reason why the square interested me. A heavy, square prime mover weight could tumble in a cage near the center of the wheel and impact actuators located in compartments just outside of the cage. It could move weights in and out, to and from the center of the wheel 4 times per revolution. If 2 of them ran side by side they could be phased to cause 8 movements per revolution. A cylindrical or spherical weight could be used as well if there was a groove or track for them to run in. Frictional losses could be reduced by minimizing the contact area of the prime mover weight with the track or groove.

Another idea to consider is placing the pivot points of weight lifting arms near the rim of the wheel. In a clockwise wheel picture an arm with its pivot or hinge mounted near the rim on the downside (3:00) position of the wheel. At the moment the prime mover weight impacts an actuator a slave weight located at the bottom {6:00} position of the wheel is lifted upwards by the arm fastened to the 3:00 pivot. This also pulls the 3:00 pivot downwards resulting in rotation. If the slave weights can cause enough of an overbalance to cause the prime mover weight to impact another actuator the process should be self replicating. The resulting slave weight path would resemble the shape of a 'D' with the majority of the weight being located on the right side of the wheel.

Something else that has always intrigued me is the width to diameter ratio of Bessler's wheels. Their widths were always much narrower than their diameters yet witnesses heard 8 impacts per revolution.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Gravitationalychallenged, Is that what is meant by a prime mover? A large weight shifting a small or smaller weight? I never new what that meant. What a big dummy I am------------------Sam

[Tarsier79]

prime mover: noun:
One regarded as the initial source of energy directed toward a goal.The initial force, such as electricity, wind, or gravity, that engages or moves a machine.A machine or mechanism that converts natural energy into work.

Sam, Besslers prime mover is something that causes the motion. It is not necessarily a large weight and not necessarily near the center. Many people have their own idea what it is, no-one has been successful at finding and using it.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi tarsier, Right. I see what you mean------------------Sam

[mikeyned]

Just found this : If the bottom weight is spinning the opposite way... why does the top weight dominate the balancing effect on the wearer of the backpack ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhOrwjPkes0

mIKEY

[Tarsier79]

I watched that the other day.

The reaction wheel works due to inertia of the entire wheel. Looking from behind, if he falls to the left(or CCW rotation), the wheel accelerates CCW, creating a CW torque on the wheels mounting point, which is his body.

Due to inertia, only the acceleration/deceleration of the mass causes the torque, not the spinning itself.

[mikeyned]

The efficiency of the interface between the inertial moment of balance and two or more weights spinning on 'the larger wheel' that equates to the man's body being the radial and the balance beam pipe is the axle. The backpack device would be many times more efficient interfacing with the inertial moment if the diameter of the weight wheel on his back extended from his feet to far over his head instead of the small circle shown on his device. The ultimate hookup with the inertial moment would be if the rim of 'balanced' weight wheel could somehow magically extend from above his head to an equal distance under his feet.
But that's impossible. Sort of...
mIKEY

[eccentrically1]

Or the old school device is way better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEnkN939ZLw

[WaltzCee]

. .. .. .

Trio: Waltz Cee, You are so damned smart that that I can’t follow half enough of what you write and it makes my brain burn. There must be some drawings or something that explains your general 2 masses concept that I sometimes catch glimpses of before the smoke blocks my vision. Could you put some cookies on a lower shelf for the new/old guy ? Not many teeth left either so can I have some milk with my cookies, too ?
. .. .. .

Fin:

mIKEY

I'm guessing you meant this idea

2 masses held at a constant radius moving toward or away from each other have a CoM that moves away from or toward their common center of rotation with the benefit of practically eliminating c.f.

That was in part how I managed to get a sim spinning at 9.2 million rpm, well before the McD napkin sketch.

There was another gimmick in the sim also.

I have a Rumble account and shortly I want a channel to start posting video. I'm holding off until I actually have an answer. When you see the Walter rumble, you'll know an answer is here.

In the mean time, I'll tty another description


Imagine a clock with 2 minute hands with each having a mass at the end away from the center. One mass at 8 o'clock and the other at 4.

• they are held at the constant radius of the minute hand.

Now both masses move toward each other to 6 o'clock, lowering their GPE and CoM.

Now imagine the clock spinning. The masses can still move toward each other with c.f. out of the equation.

Is that clearer or still clear as mud?

[mikeyned]

Still not real clear but at least we have enough of it in a glass to examine. Dr David Brown occasionally spoke about his “two masses” theory. As I delved deeper into his contemplations and sketches, I always felt he had “something” but neither of us could connect it directly back to the one way wheel or develop it into practical application.

The primary confusion would be defining unfamiliar (2 me) equation terms:
CoM:
c.f.:
GPE:

And Um ... initial reaction is that the 9.2 million RPM reference doesn't seem likely with our limited earthly gravity of only 32ft\sec\sec but I say this while fully aware that “likely” does not contradict or exclude “possible”.
In all fairness blueprints, charts and graphs are my first language.
Observed too many miscommunications and hostilities when thoughts or concepts are delivered via only the written or spoken word.

Certainly you can point to key drawing(s) from MT that are the basis of your theory.

mIKEY

[WaltzCee]

• a) Still not real clear but at least we have enough of it in a glass to examine.
  
  b) Certainly you can point to key drawing(s) from MT that are the basis of your theory.

mIKEY

• a) take a swig, you'll enjoy it.
  
  
  b)

  
  . .. .. .
  I've never spent much time studying the MT's or following clues. I have modelled the idea though and it's interesting.
  
  . .. .. .

enjoy your fishing expedition.