MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

[Fletcher]

@General , I remember this particular image of a combination of MT13 MT15 and such from searches around on google time to time , https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2517 .

To be honest the heavy weight of MT13 seems fitting for the design of the levers in MT15 which are similar like those in MT13 , and perhaps it was meant to be like that , perhaps that is exactly what the excluded "prime mover" was , because Bessler usually does more than one version of a concept here and there likely to see if he can remedy them , i suspect Bessler also knew in hind sight that there was no remedy to apply that would make "a runner" from them .

I see up to MT15 as the story of his very first prototype, that could barely move itself - where the "pendulum" was the prime mover instrument of note, used in a creative and unusual way - one perhaps on reflection not so foreign to, or requiring the extremest of lateral thinking, to a horologist .. and as Greendoor speculated above " I see the prime-mover mechanism as being separate from the wheel itself " and I also speculated earlier in the thread perhaps the original prototype did not require full enclosing allowing the prime mover " pendulum-like instrument " to operate somewhat independently of the main wheel - the prototype was not for public consumption or viewing, unlike the wheels to come after ..

[Fletcher]

JB: …perhaps that is exactly what the excluded "prime mover" was , because Bessler usually does more than one version of a concept here and there likely to see if he can remedy them ,…

I don’t see it that way. MT 12 is pushing the rods in. MT 13 is pushing the rods out. MT 14 is trying to lift the rods out. From there it gets into more complicated ideas on moving the rods.

Hey there dax .. thanks for joining in ..

Absolutely right - 100% ! - all classical mechanics "physical contact" ways of "shifting and lifting" lever-weights etc is a complete BUST !

But there it is in MT15, plain as daylight, that "symbolically showing" LIFTING is very real, and very required - and an equally compelling message that the prime mover does this !

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[daxwc]

Roxaway59: I don’t believe it has been rotated 180 degrees. If it had been and it is an A on the pendulum then the A would be upside down.

I was mistaken; you are right. The photo is one take in front of a mirror.

Simply made a mistake when he did it.

I don’t think so and the carvings were almost assuredly done by him. It is listed as one of his crafts and the tools are in his faceless portrait.

I don’t understand why the C’s are crooked.

A lot of times letters are crooked or have strange tips if they are right beside construction lines. Another possibility is that you are needed to fold the paper here. Like in the DT portrait. Probably a little too much speculation for most. ;) There might be a totally different explanation.

[daxwc]

I see Rocky’s clues have a mistake on mine on MT13. There should be a D added. So the A is a straight A.

[daxwc]

Fletcher: But there it is in MT15, plain as daylight, that "symbolically showing" LIFTING is very real, and very required - and an equally compelling message that the prime mover does this !

I totally agree. Perhaps the lifting ends up happening because of a displacement sideways.

[Trev]

I don’t understand why the C’s are crooked.

A lot of times letters are crooked or have strange tips if they are right beside construction lines.

I'd second that.

Never noticed the white 'A' on the black lower central anchor weight in MT13 before, even on dax's negative I was still hunting for it.

I thought that in Rocky's clues, there was a complete list of MT reference lettering, but on mine bellow 55 it's not complete, MT13 only mentions 'D', does anyone have a full list of just the lettering on each MT?

[daxwc]

Nice job Trev getting that A to pop out of there! Nobody should have any doubts now.

[daxwc]

Fletcher: MT13 .. many of us, including me, feel that MT13 is an important illustration ..13 is in some circumstances a significant number for Christianity - i.e. representing the 12 disciples plus Jesus at the last supper ..

Fletcher I am going to give you a different perspective to ponder. Although Bessler is a Christian and my opinion very religious; he is although a self-confessed reborn Christian. He admitted dabbling with spirits whether in black or in white, it doesn’t matter.

My opinion MT 13 is mirrored for a tantalizing reason. However, the general belief that 13 is unlucky has ancient origins and exists in various cultures.
Christianity: In Christian tradition, the Last Supper had 13 attendees (Jesus and his 12 apostles), with Judas Iscariot, the apostle who betrayed Jesus, often labeled as the 13th guest.

ChatGPT: In Christian tradition, Judas Iscariot is indeed often associated with the devil, particularly in the context of his betrayal of Jesus. According to the New Testament, Judas is depicted as being influenced or possessed by Satan when he decided to betray Jesus. This association has contributed to the negative connotations surrounding the number 13, as Judas is considered the 13th person at the Last Supper.
Biblical References

1. Gospel of John:
o John 13:2: "The devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him."
o John 13:27: "As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him."
2. Gospel of Luke:
o Luke 22:3: "Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve."

Judas and the Number 13
• The Last Supper: Judas is often considered the 13th guest at the Last Supper, which contributes to the superstition that the number 13 is unlucky. This is because his presence and subsequent actions led to the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus, events of immense religious and historical significance.
• Association with Betrayal and Evil: Judas's betrayal is seen as an act influenced by Satan, reinforcing the negative perception of both Judas and the number 13.

Conclusion
Yes, Judas Iscariot is indeed associated with the devil in Christian theology. This association, combined with his role as the 13th guest at the Last Supper, has contributed significantly to the superstition surrounding the number 13 in Western culture.

So, Fletcher, consider the context of Orffyreus and his era. In the 18th century, the belief that the number 13 carried an unlucky or malevolent power was widespread, stemming from various traditions, including Christian theology where Judas Iscariot, influenced by Satan, was the 13th guest at the Last Supper.

Bessler, as a man deeply embedded in the mysticism and superstitions of his time, would have been aware of these beliefs. To counteract the malevolent power associated with the number 13, he might have employed a clever technique in his work in MT.

The devil, often referred to as Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub, or the Prince of Darkness, is traditionally believed to be incapable of seeing his own reflection. Mirrors, in folklore, have the power to reveal truth and dispel deception, attributes antithetical to the nature of the devil, who is known as the 'Father of Lies.'

Bessler, understanding this, could have used mirroring in his MT 13 drawing to hide his true intentions and mechanisms from the devil. By presenting images in a mirrored fashion, he effectively robbed the number 13 of its malevolent power. The devil, unable to confront his reflection, would be thwarted by the mirrored image, unable to perceive the true nature of Bessler's work.

In this way, Bessler's use of mirroring serves as an ultimate snub to Beelzebub. He turns the devil’s power on its head, protecting his inventions from malevolent influence and safeguarding his secrets from any prying eyes—both human and infernal

[johannesbender]

JB: …perhaps that is exactly what the excluded "prime mover" was , because Bessler usually does more than one version of a concept here and there likely to see if he can remedy them ,…

I don’t see it that way. MT 12 is pushing the rods in. MT 13 is pushing the rods out. MT 14 is trying to lift the rods out. From there it gets into more complicated ideas on moving the rods.

I don't actually see it as different , MT12's "pushing in" as daxwc called it , is actually lift , and MT13 "pushing out" as daxwc called it , is also actually a lift , and MT14 is also actually trying to lift weights , then MT15 which is also actually trying to lift weights.

They all try to lift weights , he knows ...

[daxwc]

JB: I don't actually see it as different , MT12's "pushing in" as daxwc called it , is actually lift , and MT13 "pushing out" as daxwc called it , is also actually a lift , and MT14 is also actually trying to lift weights , then MT15 which is also actually trying to lift weights. They all try to lift weights , he knows ...

That isn’t what I was trying to address. It was “because Bessler usually does more than one version of a concept here and there likely to see if he can remedy them”. MT13 is not on an island by itself, an outlier, it follows in the flow of lifts.

[johannesbender]

@General , I remember this particular image of a combination of MT13 MT15 and such from searches around on google time to time , https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2517 .

To be honest the heavy weight of MT13 seems fitting for the design of the levers in MT15 which are similar like those in MT13 , and perhaps it was meant to be like that , perhaps that is exactly what the excluded "prime mover" was , because Bessler usually does more than one version of a concept here and there likely to see if he can remedy them , i suspect Bessler also knew in hind sight that there was no remedy to apply that would make "a runner" from them .

I see up to MT15 as the story of his very first prototype, that could barely move itself - where the "pendulum" was the prime mover instrument of note, used in a creative and unusual way - one perhaps on reflection not so foreign to, or requiring the extremest of lateral thinking, to a horologist .. and as Greendoor speculated above " I see the prime-mover mechanism as being separate from the wheel itself " and I also speculated earlier in the thread perhaps the original prototype did not require full enclosing allowing the prime mover " pendulum-like instrument " to operate somewhat independently of the main wheel - the prototype was not for public consumption or viewing, unlike the wheels to come after ..

I think Chad was on it to combine them , however that is much as i looked at (just the image alone) , but i would still yet again , go as far as saying i don't think it was a remedy for those particular designs that were of any significance , but i cant ignore how he highlights certain "parts" in certain ways in MT , until now i am not sure what he was attempting to convey (as are others) .

So i am still in the middle ground observing the interesting points , something should float to the surface some day .

[johannesbender]

JB: I don't actually see it as different , MT12's "pushing in" as daxwc called it , is actually lift , and MT13 "pushing out" as daxwc called it , is also actually a lift , and MT14 is also actually trying to lift weights , then MT15 which is also actually trying to lift weights. They all try to lift weights , he knows ...

That isn’t what I was trying to address. It was “because Bessler usually does more than one version of a concept here and there likely to see if he can remedy them”. MT13 is not on an island by itself, an outlier, it follows in the flow of lifts.

Arent you saying the same thing differently ? lol

[daxwc]

Sorry, maybe I misunderstand your statement. Somethings aren't worth fighting about. I will pick my fight else where ;)

[johannesbender]

Sorry, maybe I misunderstand your statement. Somethings aren't worth fighting about. I will pick my fight else where ;)

Its not fighting , its agreeing in different words .

[Fletcher]

Fletcher: But there it is in MT15, plain as daylight, that "symbolically showing" LIFTING is very real, and very required - and an equally compelling message that the prime mover does this !

I totally agree. Perhaps the lifting ends up happening because of a displacement sideways.

IMO .. we see in the CCW MT13 a symbolic representation of the essential mechanical "elements" ( n.b. albeit not of a runner ) of B's. perpetual motion principle - my "prototype" theory says the PM principle is manifested by the feedback between the 2 parts that make up a complete system - the outer OOB system maintains the system COM to one side or other of the axle, providing that after torque is applied to the wheel from these abundant lever-weights ( lws ) to rotate it, the lws ( correct-construction handles, that hang together ) will have their original GPE restored i.e. be periodically lifted to repeat the cycle .. the essential restoration "lift" is performed by the prime mover ( first mover ) - however a static hanging pendulum structure like shown in MT13 is not fit for purpose ( it is fundamentally a ballasted lifting ramp and all static ramps whether attached to an AH or pinned to background independent of a wheel axle fail miserably, as we all know only too well ) - therefore the prime mover pendulum-like-structure must have a point of difference from static/fixed ramps and their analogues, while being "attached" to the wheel - they must be able to oscillate ( be animated ) in some fashion to perform their intended function and fulfill their purpose, and reset themselves i.e. to lift the lws on time and be ready for the next lift .. this requires a mechanically interactive system of the 2 parts which make up the whole, that can maintain the imbalance, reset the active prime mover, and can accelerate and grow the wheel momentum into a true runner ..

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